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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:55 am 
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So one bloke has decided that he doesn't like it (as you say, a rules lawyer) and now we have to overhaul it when it really hasn't been a problem in the past? I think the fact that it's been brought up by a known "rules lawyer" in the first place, should have people wondering just why they are now annoyed by the rule.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:10 am 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 16 2007,17:34)
QUOTE
Since we are talking about tournaments here we need to talk about fairness and gamesmanship. ?I would never pull something like this 'swap' on somebody as I see it as beardy/cheesy/cheating. ?Likewise I would see it as cheating if somebody tried to pull it on me. ?

Out of curiosity, could you perhaps explain further why, if you have paid for the capability, choosing to use Drop Pods at deployment time is any more beardy / cheesy than choosing to deploy in an air transport. (I should perhaps add that IMO the cost of the drop pods is part of the cost of the spacecraft)




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jb1
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:00 am 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 16 2007,19:10)
QUOTE

(Moscovian @ Oct. 16 2007,17:34)
QUOTE
Since we are talking about tournaments here we need to talk about fairness and gamesmanship. ?I would never pull something like this 'swap' on somebody as I see it as beardy/cheesy/cheating. ?Likewise I would see it as cheating if somebody tried to pull it on me. ?

Out of curiosity, could you perhaps explain further why, if you have paid for the capability, choosing to use Drop Pods at deployment time is any more beardy / cheesy than choosing to deploy in an air transport. (I should perhaps add that IMO the cost of the drop pods is part of the cost of the spacecraft)

... I beleive it has to do with the fact of switching from one form of "transport" to another different type during a tournament-just like he says-that you quoted.
i.e. if you don't understand that I beleive he is saying that during a tournament if you choose drop pods that is what you use throughout the tournament,not change the composition from one game to the next.... :)

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:13 am 
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Because while the cost of the drop pods are part of the Spacecraft and the cost of the Rhinos are part of the infantry, the cost isn't the factor. ?The factor is that the formations themselves are undergoing a fundamental change in their structure (adding Rhinos or not adding Rhinos). ?Adding three more Rhinos allows a Tactical formation to absorb up to five more BMs (6 - 1) not to mention automatic cover for the infantry units.

Deathwinds on the other hand are big killers of infantry. ?Imagine if you had an Ork or IG army that was heavy on infantry and your Space Marine player breaks out his troops, lays down some Rhinos he fielded the previous game, then looks your stuff over.
"Wow!" He muses, "this guy is going to cover his deployment zone with infantry and there is no way around it." ?So PLINK up come the Rhinos, down go the drop pods, and "excuse me while I plot your destruction, er- I mean my Drops."

The next game he sees his opponent's troops and notices a lot of CC abilities. ?PLINK up go the drop pods, down go the Rhinos.

This goes well beyond flexibility in deployment via Thunderhawks or Wraithgates, guys. ?In real life there is a constant shifting of resources prior to a battle as you approach the enemy. ?The feelers go out and you start to get an idea as to what they have - this is simulated in the deployment process of the game (which goes down first). ?EDIT I don't see Space Marines on the ground reporting back, "Hey! We'd be much better off going BACK up into orbit on a 6 hour flight (I'm being optimistic here), prepping the drop pods, plotting their landing zone, then descending into firefight range."

FYI from the limited fiction I've read I found the SMs dropping into good situations and bad, often times not knowing the characteristics of their enemies. ?If you want to match the fluff then you should make it a requisite to determine their mode of transportation before.

Dobbsy, wouldn't you rather know about a problem prior to it being a problem? ?Good on Biggles for having some forethought. ?This way it doesn't turn into an argument at somebody's tournament someday (or worse at somebody's house where there are all sorts of powertools in our basements :) ).




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vanvlak
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:33 am 
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What we really need is a Transformer robot, which can change from a drop-pod to a Rhino to a support Warhound titan or part thereof... :p

Back on track, I tend to agree with Mosc - the start of the battle has the marines committed to one method of deployment, Rhinos OR pods. No going back. And in a tournament that would be the way I'd play it, and expect others to. :)

By the way, don't worry guys, my PhD is nearing its slow end, and in a couple of months time I'll get all my weird conversions back on track, and leave the rules discussions, which I'm reading more of when I really should be writing,  uncluttered  :devil: :p

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:48 pm 
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This is going to an extreme but here goes. Everyone seems to be happy to allow formations to change from ground deployment to a flier. However most fliers could planetfall. So if this ruling is to be consistent all units that are going to deploy from spaceships and the formations they carry must be designated at list design time?
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:25 pm 
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You bring up a good point.  For simplicity sake I'd say it is just part of the deployment flexibility but technically you would be correct - the logic would seem to extend in that direction.  The main difference is that there is no change in force composition (adding/subtracting units from your formations on a whim).  

Personally I wouldn't care if somebody brought a Tactical Unit and planetfalled it in one game and then garrisoned it in another.  The formation composition hasn't changed in this case and that is my only beef.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:48 pm 
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Mosc - if I have understood you right, it seems that the sticking point is changing the specified formation during the tournament (adding / subtracting units).

So it might be Ok If the Marine player specified that he did not have Rhinos, and then chose to deploy the formation via drop pods etc rather than garrison (or Thawk); but not Ok if he specified the formation had Rhinos, and then dropped them to garrison? It is also the ability to swap Rhinos for drop pods during start-up that is such a problem because it allows the player to choose between survivability and a good initial offensive capacity??

While I hear what you say, I find it hard to accept because there is a lot more behind the decision to swap or not. IMO Tacticals, Devastators and Scouts actually need to have the various upgrades providing ?survivability and/or punch in order to make them more than one-shot wonders. But the addition of Dreadnoughts and/or vehicles limits the potential deployment options (unless you are prepared to ditch the upgrades you have paid for). Furthermore, the planetfall assault you describe is a significant gamble because of the way it is pre-planned and then scattered, the weaker forces involved and timing its use (which is critical). Too early and the opponent has time to recover and pulverise the juicy targets that have landed on his doorstep, too late and the target formations may have moved. In my experience it is much better delayed as long as possible, and having enough other activations is key to this. But this also imposes subtle limitations on the army choices and the possible updgrade "points pool". And, all these choices need to be made against the limitations of the Strike Cruiser capacity (20 units) and the various formation combinations that may be carried.

I guess I am saying that in practice, the player already has to make a number of these 'transport decisions' for the infantry up front during army selection and there is a considerable trade-off in providing the Rhino-Pod swap "flexibility" for more than one or two formations, which IMHO makes this whole issue a bit of a non-debate - other than to have some informed agreement that it is a potential option for the Marines.

But I guess we may just have to "agree to disagree" on this. :)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:34 pm 
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other than to have some informed agreement that it is a potential option for the Marines.


Most people seem to believe that the swap shouldn't be allowed.

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Soren
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:37 pm 
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No, not most. Most of the loudest crying people.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:45 pm 
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crying


Might be best to have a vote, rather than sling insults.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:01 pm 
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I think the wording of your comments on the vote are not strictly correct. No other army has the possibility of this choice, and only 3 formations in the marines can currently use it.

Why is it so heinous to allow a marine player to chose to use drop pods compared to a swooping hawk troupe that can chose from 5 methods of deployment? (Normal, Gate, Garrison, Flyer or teleport?). As Ginger has said the limits the marine player has taken at list design time (bought a spaceship and reserved slots in the spaceship to drop the formation) make this not such a straight forward choice anyway.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Soren, your comment is wrong. ?MOST of the people disagree. ?I just spent 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back writing down the name of every person that posted on this (not the number of times they posted). ?

Total for swap being allowed: 8
Total against swap being allowed: 17
One vote (jb1) I wasn't sure on since his posts seem to go both directions, but perhaps I didn't read them well enough.

I don't need a poll to tell me that the majority of people don't like this idea. ?And we're not talking about a bunch of Doug and Wendy Whiners either:

People Against the Swap:
Moscovian, Evil & Chaos, Alansa, Markconz, Sotec, Cybershadow, Charad, Lord Inquisitor, Vanvlak, Blarg D Impaler, Dwarf Supreme, m4jumbo, yogozuno, Dave, rpr, Chroma, Syrotu

This is a good cross section of people from the SG forum and Tactical Command that range from new posters to veterans - clearly not a bunch of cry babies. ?

FYI People For the Swap:
scarik, Dobbsy, Pixelgeek, Neal Hunt, Biggles, Mephiston, Tiny-Tim, Soren.

Even if the numbers were dead even though, there are enough people who are against it where any good gamer should shrug it off and say, "No big deal, I'll choose beforehand" and be done with it. ?No doubt the Marines need some help but not this way.

EDIT: Forgot you the first time posting this, Soren... Sorry!
EDIT AGAIN for posts that followed, adjusted Chroma's vote, subtracted the Ginger duplicate vote, and added Syrotu's vote.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Related to the topic: according to the swap logic it should be okay to drop your Rhinos and put the Tactical Formation in a Thunderhawk and deploy them that way.  Once again this crosses the line.

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bans
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:23 pm 
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hi!
maybe the Space Marine player loss the first turn due to battle reorganization if the player wants to change the rhinos to droppods.

the rule may say:

Each formation that changes the transport option ( Rhinos to Droppods or Land Raiders to Thunder Hawk) loss the entire first turn and goes to play next turn and only can be activated when all the other space marine units has been activated.


cheers Bans




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