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Blood Angels v2.08

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Chroma wrote:
Simulated Knave wrote:
and can Engage on failed checks.

This is actually quite a bad thing... it's not a "benefit"... as the formation will now be engaging with a Blast marker... instead of shooting, moving to take an objective, or clearing off Blast markers, etc.


And it absolutely does represent losing control when close to the enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Chroma:
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This is actually quite a bad thing... it's not a "benefit"... as the formation will now be engaging with a Blast marker... instead of shooting, moving to take an objective, or clearing off Blast markers, etc.


True. I am perhaps overstating it. However, I'd say it'll work out OK a fair bit - often they'll be too far away to reach the enemy, or be closest to an enemy they wanted to assault anyway. Yeah, sometimes it'll bite you. But not that often, especially (I think) if the player in question is cautious.

* * *
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There are a lot of incredibly dumb things in 40k. Thunderwolf riders are hugely dumber than one group of marines having slightly better engines than the others, for example.


One makes sense internally to the universe. One does not.

If the wolf fetishist Chapter decides they want combat wolves, that makes a certain degree of sense. If one Chapter invents something awesome that makes almost all their vehicles massively more efficient and then refuses to share it with anyone else, that doesn't. Especially when it's the Blood Angels, who have generally been portrayed as fairly helpful and noble.

It might make sense if there were drawbacks to it, or if it were only really useful for short bursts into combat. But that's not how people seem to be interpreting it, or how it seems to be presented.

Furthermore, that doesn't deal with the fact that using the engines in a skirmish and using them in a battle may be very different kettles of fish. We know that the BA Rhinos are a lot faster in a 40K battle, but there doesn't seem to be much to demonstrate that they increase overland speed that much.

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Whether you like it or not, that's what the background now is, and as E&C says, he has no intention of making a list that represents 40k as it used to be.


So the BA list is going to be wholly revamped every five or six years? Seriously? And may completely change in character, shape and nature each time?

How is that a good idea?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:15 pm 
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So the BA list is going to be wholly revamped every five or six years?

No.

A minor nudge once every six years wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, mind you.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Quote:
No.


So if the next Codex changes things massively, you're just going to stick with the previous version?

Or you don't feel this was a particularly big change?

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A minor nudge once every six years wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, mind you.


True. However, if the current trend in codices continues, it's gonna be more than a minor nudge.

Of course, it's gonna take a forklift to move the next Codex, too, at this rate.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:21 pm 
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I don't think it's a particularly big change at all. Blood Angels have always had faster engines, they're just no longer as unreliable. That's a very minor change.

Oh, and thunderwolves aren't combat wolves, they're space marines riding combat wolves. Much sillier.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Er...no. They're evidently not unreliable at all, and they're on everything. And that evidently means +5cm to all BA Rhino-types. Which is all but what...two vehicles in the list (not counting War Engines)? One of which was added with this update? It also apparently makes Rhinos "more usable". I'd say it's big enough.

You do realize they used to be on Rhinos only, then Rhinos and Baals only, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:28 pm 
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Yep. That is a very small change. Over time more vehicles have got the faster engines, it makes sense that they all do now.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
No.


So if the next Codex changes things massively, you're just going to stick with the previous version?

If in six years we get a new Codex that changes things "massively" then we can probably do a new variant list, rather than modding the old list.

Alternatively, if there are only minor changes then they can be adopted or ignored as required.

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Or you don't feel this was a particularly big change?

It honestly doesn't matter. What matters is what we should be drawing from today, not in six years time, and certainly not what we would have been drawing on had we been developing the list six years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:09 pm 
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zombocom:
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Yep. That is a very small change. Over time more vehicles have got the faster engines, it makes sense that they all do now.

And if it were "everyone now has overcharged engines" I'd say dandy. But it isn't. It's "everything is now a fast vehicle". Which is bigger. And is being taken as such.

Take a look at what happened to the list:

2.07 had Titans. Normal Rhinos etc. Bikes. Oh, and no Baal Predator formation.

2.08 lacked Titans and Bikes, gave all Rhino vehicles +5cm, and added a new unit. Of the twelve formations in the 2.07 BA list, six were directly affected. And that's without counting everything with a Hunter upgrade.

That's a big change.

* * *
E&C:
Quote:
If in six years we get a new Codex that changes things "massively" then we can probably do a new variant list, rather than modding the old list.

Alternatively, if there are only minor changes then they can be adopted or ignored as required.


So if it's a big change, this list won't be modified. And if it's a small change, this list may not be modified. So in the future, we're not necessarily bound by what's current in 40K. We're just bound by it now.

I'm not really sure what to say here. This seems kind of inconsistent. I don't mind if you want to represent the now of 40K (though I think it's a path fraught with risk). I don't mind if you're more concerned with creating a unique and interesting BA list, and thus ignore a few changes. But I really don't get how you can say the above and say what you've said throughout this thread - that it's got to represent the current list in 40K. Either it has to represent the current list, or it doesn't...

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:12 pm 
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+5cm move is not a big change, as has been highlighted by everyone else posting in this thread. How often do vehicles move their full allowance on every move? Rarely.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Except Rug, who says it makes them more usable.

And if it matters so little, why make the change at all? We don't know how much faster BA Rhinos are overall - only how much faster they are in the highly abstracted 40K. So why bother? And why insist upon its retention so fiercely?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not really sure what to say here. This seems kind of inconsistent. I don't mind if you want to represent the now of 40K (though I think it's a path fraught with risk). I don't mind if you're more concerned with creating a unique and interesting BA list, and thus ignore a few changes. But I really don't get how you can say the above and say what you've said throughout this thread - that it's got to represent the current list in 40K. Either it has to represent the current list, or it doesn't...

We cross bridges when we come to them, not when we imagine what bridges may possibly be built.

Let's have this conversation in another 6-8 years, when the next BA codex hits, shall we?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Except Rug, who says it makes them more usable.

And if it matters so little, why make the change at all? We don't know how much faster BA Rhinos are overall - only how much faster they are in the highly abstracted 40K. So why bother? And why insist upon its retention so fiercely?


Flavour.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:45 pm 
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The flavour of BA is assaulting/bloodlust/what-have-you, not being really fast. Any speed they have has been well-established as being derived from their desire to get to CC more quickly.

And like it or not, flavour does extend beyond the current Codex portrayal of an army. So I don't think that's much of a defense in this case.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.08
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:48 pm 
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The flavour of BA is assaulting/bloodlust/what-have-you, not being really fast. Any speed they have has been well-established as being derived from their desire to get to CC more quickly.

So they therefore are going to get 16% extra speed in Epic (+5cm on Rhinos) to allow them to reach CC range. Yay.

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flavour does extend beyond the current Codex portrayal of an army. So I don't think that's much of a defense in this case.

Your personal opinion is noted.

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