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Oh, and I think LRs'd be good at 75pts. Use the NetEA stats (ie FF4+). If people want to change those, then worry about it.
zombocom:
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The better engines that they now have (like it or not) is a good reason.
We don't know how much faster those engines are (we know how much faster they are in the abstract realm of 40K, but LRs and Vindicators and Rhinos are all the same speed in 40K). We don't know how stable they are over the long-term. And we also don't know what Matt Ward was smoking.
The better engines don't make sense for a variety of reasons, many of which I have elucidated before. They're inconsistent with previous background, with current background, and with common sense, both in-universe and out-of-universe.
Added to that, there's nothing to me that suggests that they'd appreciably increase a Rhino's speed on the larger scale of Epic - Rhinos can already go a lot faster on-road than off-road. They don't. I don't think you'd find that's a problem of their engine, I think that has a lot to do with what the chassis will take. There is no mention of increased toughness of the suspension or chassis - only the engines are improved. For short bursts, I'd buy it. But over the longer term, I think the need to stop and make repairs thanks to increased wear and tear on the vehicle would balance out the increased speed.
And on top of
that, the only AVs which have 35cm speed are skimmers with top speeds of several hundred kilometers per hour, and cruising speeds which are still double or triple that of Rhinos and Chimeras. The exception to that is a Mekboy Speedsta, which is a vehicle piloted by someone who can
reshape reality with his mind in a group of such creatures, all of whom are obsessed with speed, and who have, IIRC, been known to attach rockets to their vehicles.
I think BA Rhinos are likely faster than normal SM ones. But I don't think they're faster enough to justify this change. They might be faster enough when charging into an engagement. But otherwise I'd say they go about as fast as normal Rhinos due to terrain conditions, the strength of the chassis and other such considerations.
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Scouting bikers would be a good upgrade were it not for the fact that scouting, skimmer land speeders are a much better upgrade if a scout ZOC is wanted for a formation.
Well, you could get more for the same cost...
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E&C:
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Except for the undisputable fact that all their Rhino-hulled vehicles have better engines than those of any other Space Marine Chapter, which are noted to be both more powerful and also reliable.
You may not like that fact, but it is a fact.
Facts are negotiable in 40K.
Furthermore, there's plenty of previous material which says otherwise. And, like it or not, previous material is often accepted as valid by players - sometimes even to the exclusion of more recent fluff.
In this case, the BA have an innovation that is arbitrarily better than the equipment available to other Chapters. They have had the technology for this innovation since the Emperor was still around. No one evidently cares. This is not "40k stupid". This is stupid stupid.
The Lucifer Engines are "OMG MY CHAPTER IS AWESUM!". And Epic, IMO, should try to avoid that sort of thing. One of the points of Epic list design is not to create things that are "the other list, but better". I'd say that goes for equipment, too - creating "Rhinos, but better" is out-of-keeping with the Epic philosophy.
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Who says Assault Cannons aren't an STC system?
Uh...the various bits of background which describe them as created after the Heresy?
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And what do Assault Cannons have to do with a Rhino's engines?
Well, since up until the most recent Codex the only unique thing about the Baal Predator was its armament...
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His Codeces sell very well too, so clearly your measure of competence isn't the same as GW's measure...
Last I checked, GW never released sales figures...
And Space Marine codices always sell well. It's kind of their thing. Furthermore, Codices do not necessarily sell because of the writing. Nor are popular rules necessarily well-balanced.
I'd say, BTW, that it makes a fair bit of sense to just have the Bike detachment be a normal Bike detachment. BA had normal bikes for three codices. This latest one has bikes that, while good, aren't good enough to rate special rules (in the Codex, that is). I'd just leave them alone - people concerned about accurately representing modern BA can get their way (by not taking them), people concerned about accurately representing old BA can have their cake, too.
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Red Sorceror:
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Every example of background on the Baal Predator I've come across, including Index Astartes articles, Codex descriptions, and Imperial Armour, has said it is an STC design recovered by the Blood Angels during the Great Crusade.
Uh...where are you finding these, then?
C:BA 3e makes no mention of an STC, nor does 4e. Nor does the BA IA. Maybe Imperial Armor does. Maybe AoD does. But none of those other ones do.
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LandSpeeders have Assault Cannons too. Land Speeders are STC Designs.
The only unique thing about the Baal Predator used to be its weapons fit. If that's not what was STC, what was?
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Rug:
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I see BA as being refined and rapid, effective in combat but with a secret flaw.
Emperor's Children being the Chaos equivalent (their flaw being hedonism and not so secret)
Except I'd argue the background tends to disagree with you. They've got a flaw, and it actually compromises their effectiveness. Witness all the modifications to get them into hand-to-hand quicker. Or, y'know. The Red Thirst.
I'd say the BA are non-Berzerker Khornate equivalents. Out of combat, I'd even agree with the whole refined thing. But once combat draws near, they seem to have difficulty ignoring their bloodlust.
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SK and I obviously have diverging views as to where BA should be going
Ya think?
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(similar to the split within the Chapter described in the fluff!). As I see it there is already a bloodthirsty list: Flesh Tearers, this list can also represent the BA. I think a list for the BA which represents them as being the noble sons of Sagnius... but with a fatal flaw would be more interesting than an in your face uncontrolable assault army.
Except the BA
are in many ways an in-your-face uncontrollable assault army. Or at least difficult to control. They're certainly assault-focused.
And I'd say right now they don't have much of a fatal flaw. Instead they've got better Rhinos and can Engage on failed checks. I'm not sure why anyone
wouldn't play them.
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The fluff does a pretty good job of depicting BA as strategically fast as well as skirmish fast. The fluff covering events leading upto the big capaign turning drop at the end of the 2nd War for Armageddon as well as the drop describes lots of movement and rapid redeployment. The new codex also descibes BA keeping up with Eldar strategically at times too... ambushing Swooping Hawks!
All Space Marines are strategically fast! If you want to talk about giving normal Marines 35cm Rhinos, sure, but otherwise that's not much of an argument. Even the Salamanders, IIRC, have a number of examples of fast strategic deployments and the like. The Blood Angels don't seem to be particularly unusual in this.
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Based on the number of Scout upgrades you see used in other lists (kommandos, storm boyz, snipers, and arguably the odd Swooping Hawk in an "other" orientated aspect formation) I'd say giving the bike upgrade "scout" isn't going to make them much more appealing. Bikes do add some cc punch but at the cost of the ability to actually get into combat. Formations with the upgrade would not fit in a THawk, can't drop pod, or afford to spend points protecting transport slots.
I was thinking about it mostly in relation to the Predator formations, rather than the other ones. Predator formations can already do none of those things.
The Codex does describe them using Bikes as screens for Predator columns.
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"Selfish Marines" is a non issue. BA have kit other Chapters don't. That is GW official and critical for sales of a "unique" army which happens to share the same range as loads of other "unique" armies/ chapters...
Having kit other Chapters don't is one thing. Having kit other Chapters don't that is
massively better is another. It goes from "OK, they like to do things differently" to "OK, they're jerks who would rather keep secrets than help their brothers" (and that's the Dark Angels' niche). Overcharged engines were dangerous and carried drawbacks equal to their advantages. Other Chapters not using them was justifiable. Lucifer Engines, OTOH, are apparently better than all the other engines with no drawbacks whatsoever - and the BA keep them all to themselves and have done since the Emperor was around. Which raises interesting questions about why he put up with his armies being less efficient.
Look at the unique equipment of other Chapters - almost all of it can be ascribed to particular quirks of individual Chapter doctrine which would not be repeated or to old equipment which cannot be easily reproduced. The only one I can't think of is the Mortis Dreadnought, and normal Marines now have access to that in 40K.
As a Marine player, I resent the idea that the BA are better than my Marines "just 'cause". As a BA player, I resent that idea
and am irked by the idea that the depiction of BA I liked is apparently going to be wholly abandoned in favor of the new Codex's version.
Variant Marine lists are supposed to be different. They're not supposed to be better. And the whole Lucifer Engine thing is making them better, not different.
