Hello,Hello_Dave from Dave

Loving the look of the list  

The Landing Craft is missing it's AA stats from the Heavy bolters and is 50 points dearer.
Is there a 1/3 limit on Titans and Imperial Navy formations.
You have Vindicators at 300 points.

Will get a few games in with the list after the tournament season finishes here in the UK and give you some feedback  

keep up the great work.

Cheers for spotting (yet more) typos.

I've been (quite) an outsider in the UK Tournament scene this year, but will be attending a few in the new year myself

I played against the Wolves yesterday with Tau. It was a great game and here are some observations of the SW list:

1. In general, given the palette of formaations that were used, the list worked very well. It felt very "wolfy", to use a technical gaming turn.  

2. Although I thought the Wolves were going to have a very difficult time in the game due to their activation deficit, played to their strengths, they did quite well. Not a list for the timid, but then I don't belive any SM list should be played by the weak of heart.

3. The Long Fangs seem very strong. Taking two of these in each Grey Hunter pack is really the optimal build at this point. 8 x missile launchers is pretty painful, even with their cost. After kicking around some alternatives, I think their cost either needs to be bumped, or what I think would be a better option is reduce them to only one unit in the pack. So basically, only allow one upgrade to Long Fangs for the current cost.

Without addressing this, I don't think there's any reason to take anything else. The other benefit is that by not spending so many points on LFs, the wolf player might be able to take another formation, perhaps scouts.

4. I really like the structure of the list and how you put things together. As soon as we get some Thunderwolf equivalents, we'll give them a shot as they look pretty interesting. However, Grey Hunters are really the way to go and I like seeing that as the emphasis.

5. It took a little getting used to the fact that Grey Hunters don't have heavy weapons, which did cause them to have to make some tough tactical decisions, but I see this as a good thing, very fluffy.

All in all, I'd say it's shaping up quite well and look forward to playing against it again.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Hi Honda.

that's good to hear overall!

I was concerned about the Long Fangs being too powerful from the get-go, all that concerns me about them is 2 Blast Markers will supress the single stand, so there might need to be some thinking outside the box here going forward. I'm trying to avoid a 'no-brainer' choice though, so dropping them down from 0-2 to 0-1 as an interim fix sounds like a plan.

Just out of interest, did you use the Wolf Guard Terminators?

You haven't read my batrep yet, have you?

In short, yes the Wolves player took two, they were quite brutal (accounted for two Hammerhead cadres, drove off the Skyrays) and we'll probably need to discuss the CML and/or costs.

All in all, given the palette of formations we used, it looked pretty good.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Ok some comments in no particular order. I'll hopefully be doing the army on vassal soon as marines are one of the easier armies to play with on that accursed program.

Units

Characters
Is the lack of Leader intentional to fit with the 25 point cost or a misprint? If its intentional the army is crippled right there. Any assault based army is stuffed if it carries bm's. And any army relying on Rhinos for tranport is doubly so. Basically all I have to do to ensure a formation has bms for the rest of that turn and the next is shoot a rhino. That is pure poison for marines, especially ones that aren't going to be shooting much. If you want cheaper heros drop everything bar Leader, the oposite ain't good. Though to start with maybe just drop invulnerable save, after all they don't live forever
I would drop Battle Leaders. Rational is only the Wolf Lord has impressed the boys enough to ensure any would follow. Others just leader their own packs.
Alternatively could go for making him a cheap Hero of 25 points with just Leader, the others being more expensive with Leader + x, or the others being leaderless and the formations being able to take 2 heros.
Finally another option is a variation on what you have now and have every formation come with a battle leader who just grants leader and then the option of taking a second Hero as an upgrade (who wouldn't have leader).
Can you give the runepriest teleport. No in game effect in this list, would just be for possible 13th company shenanigans in the future.

Troops
Wolf Scouts. Currently they are Imperial Guard stormtroopers. Should they be a bit better?

Blood Claws/swiftclaws
I really don't agree with the FF. They carry both less weapons than regular marines and are worse shots. A bunch of DA assault marines should win a firefight with a bunch of Space Wolf assault marines as the latter are crap shots and lack all the plasma and melta weaponry, same with the bikes.

Fenris wolves
Is it a misprint they have a 5+ armour save (as there is no + sign after the five and its hard to see why they are tougher than Orks!)

Land Raider
Can't carry blood claws?

Army List
Armour. Not tempted to make a warband of tanks? 4-6 tanks, hunter upgrade? Something like Land Raider 85 points, Predator Annihilator 70, Predator Destructor 65, Vindicator 55, 4-6, upgrades Hunter, hero (representing iron Fathers etc), Vindicator.

Various points like vindicators for 300 I guess are typos and you intend to actually match the EpicUK costs?

Skyclaws upgrade. Just make it a flat 50 points for the formation? Otherwise its basically 60 points as there is little reason to take just 1 jump pack (only reason being I think getting a spare transport slot, but may as well buy a razorback for that). Still is it worth it? 360 points for 6 assault marines. A regular army could get 8 in a thunderhawk for 350.

Going with the possible downstating for blood claws FF (see above) maybe you could have 2 core formations a blood claw one and a grey hunter one? 25 points difference between them say? On points in general I reckon you could easily get away with 6 grey hunters for 275 (some think normal tacticals should cost that) with a hero with just leader and that would be a good assault formation.

I don't think long fangs are an automatic choice. Personally for general purpose work I think 3 razorbacks are better and more survivable.
I would recommend trying 0-1 long fang unit can be added to any formation of grey hunters for 75. Thats more of a balance with razors and other upgrades.

More whittering later probably.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Ah, you can always count on TRC cutting all the meat off of the bone.  

In general, I agree with his comments. Possible exceptions are:

1. Fenris Wolves. These are not your typical shaggy dog kind of wolves or even the slightly elevated WFB versions. These are truly monstrous sized and would be much tougher than Orks. I think they are Ok as is. I'll check the Codex to confirm, but they are pretty tough.

2. Wolf Scouts: In a lot of ways, they are a ST equivalent, though they are a bit tougher in CC. We didn't use any in our game, but will try them later.

3. I could support either 2 core formations or one warband. I liked the warband as it was a different approach to SMs and I thought very fluffy. You could make either work, but TRC does bring up a good point regarding costs and you might consider increasing the size of the Bloodclaws formation. They do get to field larger formations.

4. After thinking about the Grey Hunters for 275, I think there is merit to that idea.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

1. They are. 2 Wounds and Toughness 5 combined with their Power Armour makes them considerably tougher than an Ork Nob.

2. How about giving them Teleport to represent their enhanced infiltration skills?

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Hmm lots to think about (great report Honda by the way ).

I'm certainly at home to the battle leader just granting leader and replacing the bundled 'Hero' upgrade.

I think dropping the Long Fangs down to 0-1 might be good, to reflect their rarity, I'm still concerned about BM's and suppression there though, what about 100 for a single stand that has a funky 'grizzled veterans' rule that lets them some how harder to suppress?

Blood Claws - I agree! What about making them cc 4+ (+ 1 EA, representing their enthusiasm) ff 6+? I'm quite keen on the mixed warbands idea in fairness, and would like to keep it in, so I'm aiming to make Blood Claws and Grey Hunters about as good as each other. I'm wary of making them any bigger because then we hit the forbidden number 8, and there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sky claws, agreed 10 points is too much, maybe drop to +5?

Fenrisian Wolves - what Honda said.

Thunder Wolves - teleport might work, but it's a no teleport army so far, would people agree with scout?

Wolf Scouts - They're less well armoured grey Hunters with plasma weapons and some funky abilities. This does come out similar to Storm Troopers, but what else to do?

Wolf Guard - I thought that trading off some AT firepower for better range would be a fair deal tbh, if it's too good then I'll look at upping the points slightly

v0.3.1 is in the works (with a raft of changes), but will wait for some feedback before posting it up.

I liked TRC's idea of starting with a Leader, then being able to add one. It's sort of Orkish, but gives your smaller formations the ability to weather a lot of BMs.



Again, KISS. Go for one @ 75 and use the above rule for Leader. I think that's better than a special rule.



I like that recommendation.



The key here is to get away from odd increments of points. All the right handers out there like their lists to make the 2700/3000 pt limit neatly and odd numbers causes consternation.  



Teleport is a "no-no" in this army. Scout doesn't seem warranted based on what they are supposed to do. I'd say let's run with them as is and see how they perform.



Leave as is and play test.



Since these guys should also get the benefit of Leader + Leader upgrade, I think you should take a stab at a points upgrade and we'll see how they work out. In general, try coming in a little high (i.e. too expensive) as it is easier to start high and ratchet down vs. the other way around.



Very cool!

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

They have power armour? Surely they just have shaggy hair, or do they have bizarre armoured wolves? (We aren't talking about silly wolf riders here, just wolves.)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Now TRC, this is GW, you should know better.    These are not just "wolves", they look to be nearly twice as big as a Bison/Buffalo, incorporate bionics, and have some body armor. They are big, nasty, and don't brush their teeth. You don't teach them how to fetch anything smaller than a redwood.

Yer basic nightmare. So, I think he's got them pretty close.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Aren't some of the wolves part cybernetic? (or was that just the character ones?). I've scan flicked through the codex just once.

The rider and the wolf form a single model with a single stat-line.
And yes the Thunderwolves semselfes are partly cybernetic.

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We are returned!
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We aren't talking about thunderwolves bl but fenris wolves, I beleive from what I glanced at they are a seperate squad in the 40k codex?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x