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'Fix' for marine infantry
The points drop/rise described below and Thunderhawks +25 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
The points drop/rise described below and Thunderhawks +50 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
No, leave as is 67%  67%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 21

'Fix' for marine infantry
Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:27 pm 
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Cybernetic horse ducks...bad image... :D

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:28 pm 
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What Soren says. The Codex SM listis fine as is. I regulary play against a SM player who never uses drop pods or thunderhwks and i seldom win against him with my air assault SMs :D

But  if you want a  pure ground based SM forcer then develope a separate list for them ImperialFists come to mind for this as they are specialists in ground warfare (expecially against fortifications and inusing fortifications semselve)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:32 pm 
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For the most part, variant SM lists don't get used.

The ratio of Codex SM players to variant list players is probably on the order of 99.9 to 0.1 *.

So if it can be done, it's infinitely more preferable to incorporate both types of army, especially since the rulebook itself claims that both types of army are feasable!


Plus, I believe that it can be done, and the only reason it hasn't been done already is that nobody has tried.


* Baseless speculation.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:37 pm 
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For the most part, variant SM lists don't get used.

Perhabs it has something to do with that no other SM list is official and the WhiteScars armylist is to special an army?




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:38 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 18 2007,08:55)
QUOTE
Check out the unit descriptions in the E:A rulebook itself... it's full of descriptions of Marines undertaking ground-battles.

True but at what scale?

And how representative is that of the core Marine background?

It still seems to me that if you want to be true to how the Marines are currently represented in the background that you can't field them in huge hordes. Something like that seems as if it would be a monumental occasion.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:40 pm 
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If you want to field SM true to background, then you would play an IG force with a small amount of SM as air assault/droppod allies to save the day for the IG.

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Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Oh I have tried and to be honest there is no use of shooty tanks within a list based on CC and FF, especially if they have paper-armor, good but not excellent movement and a lousy FF and CC value. There is no room for shooty-designed units within a list based on winning engagements.

Without quarreling about tactics, but if you want to succeed, you have to be superior in one battleskill. Just half-cancelling out a weakness is not that benefit than being excellent in a specific role. Therefore there will be no room for this units (at least in my armies).

The second thing: On the ground most armies are more mobile than marines. Hey, even ORKS get more units with the same speed on any point of the battlefield if they want to. And I am not talking about the faster Eldar and Tau (codename "Skimmer"). You will always loose out on the ground where you should be better and (this is the main point) you loose your benefits (namely the shock effect to strike wherever you want whenever you want). And thats the reason why pure ground pounder armies do not work without getting cheesy. On the ground a marine is outnumbered, outmaneuvered and last but not least outgunned. Heroic? sure! Funny? Maybe! Challenging? definitely yes, but never fair.


my 0,002 cents.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:50 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 18 2007,17:17)
QUOTE
Everyone who is voting 'no change':

Please explain why you feel the ground-based Marine list is a valid build... since the proposals above hardly touch the current airborne build.

I voted no change.

The marine infantry formations, with the exception of the Assault Marines, are all used regularly as ground formations in tournaments and batreps.  To me, that's very strong evidence that they are just fine.

I believe the missing component for SM ground forces to be competitive overall is strong fire support, i.e. armor.  The infantry is fine.

===

I strongly feel WE NEED A SM CHAMPION to get back a line into the development.  As ist does now, there are many proposals, many suggestions but no red line through the whole process.


I disagree that a lack of champion is the problem.  the problem as I see it is the lack of a rules review being completed.  The rules review dragging on ad infinitum is what allows a constant stream of new proposals and "what if" suggestions for all the rules - core and army lists.  That surfeit of alternative rules, in turn, prevents any sort of focus from the would-be playtest community.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:40 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 18 2007,10:50)
QUOTE
I believe the missing component for SM ground forces to be competitive overall is strong fire support, i.e. armor. ?The infantry is fine.

Super Heavies of some sort would be nice.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Why would a strike force like Space Marines use super-heavy tanks?
Sms have tobe fast and agile. Not an attribute what super-heavy tanks posses.

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LordoftheMilk
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:03 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 18 2007,18:50)
QUOTE
The marine infantry formations, with the exception of the Assault Marines, are all used regularly as ground formations in tournaments and batreps. ?To me, that's very strong evidence that they are just fine.

I believe the missing component for SM ground forces to be competitive overall is strong fire support, i.e. armor. ?The infantry is fine.

So what are your opinions?

Are the suggested changes of -25 pts. to armor formations, Hunters everywhere, speed boost to vindicators(with perhaps an added goodie for them), better FF for Pred and Land raider enough in your opinion?

What do you suggest for assault marines?
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nealhunt
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:19 pm 
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(LordoftheMilk @ Jun. 18 2007,20:03)
QUOTE
Are the suggested changes of -25 pts. to armor formations, Hunters everywhere, speed boost to vindicators(with perhaps an added goodie for them), better FF for Pred and Land raider enough in your opinion?

With the slight upticks to TSKNF, I think that will go a very long way to making ground SM forces more competitive.  I say "more competitive" because I believe they are competitive now, just suboptimal.

What do you suggest for assault marines?


I don't have a suggestion. I have yet to see any suggestion to fix assault marines that doesn't screw some other formation's deployment options.

In an ideal world, there would be a cost for the Thawk based on what value it adds to the troops in its payload.  However, that isn't practical.  Barring that, some formation or formations will always be a bit too expensive or a bit too cheap.

Nothing should be too cheap for balance reasons.  That means the only choice is which combination of formations and deployment options are going to be too expensive.  I noted some of the "trade-off" questions above.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:34 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 18 2007,11:56)
QUOTE
Why would a strike force like Space Marines use super-heavy tanks?
Sms have tobe fast and agile. Not an attribute what super-heavy tanks posses.

A ground attack army of Marines wouldn't really be a strike force though.

Marines being dropped via THawk or Drop Pods don't need them and any other army would, I think, require some sort of reinforcement.

But again, the idea of a ground force of just Marines seems odd to me

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:49 pm 
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Well in WH40k games they are groundbased almost exclusively :D But then Wh40k is a very bad representation of typical WH40k-Universe warfare ;)

But if you read some of the novels then you see that SM indeed do groundbased battles. Air-Assaults and DropPods seem to be only the gebinning of deployment for battle.
SM excel in mobile warfare but a battle of atrition they will loose (for example: the  Avenging Sons Chapter in the first encounter with the Tau on Taros).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:58 pm 
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I think the deployments I normally list when this topic comes up are those from the Imperial Armour 3, because the IA series is about the most 'hard' scifi sourcebooks around.


IA:3 - There are three Marine operations.

1 - Drop Pod assault.
2 - Ground-based attack.
3 - Ground-based defensive battle.


All of the above feature Marine forces large enough to be featured in games of Epic.




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