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Attack Bikes
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:57 pm 
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Bikes and Attack Bikes have the same rules for movement and shooting.
Bikes are Attack Bikes without the 2nd Wound and Attack and without the heavy weapon.

Bike Squadrons are 3-6 Bikes (same stats as marines but with Toughness 5). Bikes are equipped with Twinlinked Bolters. In addition 2 Bikes can be equipped with a special weapon (flamer, meltagun, plasmagun). The Sergeant  canbe upgradet to VeteranSergeant and then can be equipped with CC gear (as any other VetSgt. too).
One Attack Bike can be added to the Bike Squadron with the option to change the Heavy Bolter for a Multi-Melta.

And then there are Attack Bike Squadrons consisting of 1-3 Attack Bikes. AttackBikes are equipped with Twinlinked Bolters and one Heavy Bolter. Options are switching the Heavy Bolters for Multi-Meltas.

Because of this i porpose a change to Bikes: switch their FF and CC stats.
They aren't that great in CC but have a higher close range firepower than a 5 Man Tactical Marine Squad.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:15 pm 
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E&C:  I'm not sure that the Attack Bikes are only worth 3/4 of a normal Bike when en masse.  That would depend on other stat changes and I couldn't tell from your post what you intended in that regard.

The idea of a point cut for them does make some sense overall, though.  I think a single Attack Bike in a Bike formation is a viable option.  A point break would still allow that without actually changing the list.  Even 20 points from two 4:1 formations won't change a SM army list.  OTOH, it does provide an incentive for several Attack Bikes  as the discount does start to add up enough to make a difference.

Believe it or not, I was one of the people in playtesting spearheading the idea that they should be a free upgrade instead of +10 points...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:37 pm 
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Believe it or not, I was one of the people in playtesting spearheading the idea that they should be a free upgrade instead of +10 points...


Funny stuff :)


I might try playtesting Attack Bikes at -10pts and run a few variations on the formation in a few games. I'd really love to be able to look at Attack Bikes as a useful unit to the army, rather than a useful unit to the meta-game (BM-layer).

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:03 pm 
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I've posted a attack bike change proposal in the "Changing the core Marine list" thread on May 30 2007,10:05:


I would like to see some chances for the attack bike, because it is very poor compared to the Landspeeder Tornado. This chance should also allow to field full attack bike detachments and not only the use in a bike detachment to place BMs.

- Give speed 35cm (is agreed by most players)
- Make mounted infantry (like the bike) (is still in discussion)
- Chance weapon to 2x Heavy bolter (instead of one) (this is new)

A price raise for the upgrade to +5 per unit might then be appropriate (but not if it's scipped for the LS Tornado).
For this chances I advise using two attack bikes per base/unit.


A would not make the 2 models/unit a must if the attack bike is changed to infantry. Especially for the folks buying the new Mailorder bike set this would be a setback, and even more discurraging using more then one per bike formation.

The change to infantry was also so that a single attack bike doesn't  get snipered by usual AT or AP/AT weapons (in addition to making the formation immune to casualities due to sonely AT-weapons, which e.g. the orks don't have).

I got to the 2x Heavy Bolter idea by comparing them to the landspeeder tornado, which has 1 Assault cannon + 1 Heavy Bolter, and is much better than the attack bike, if nothing is changed.
The attack bikes won't be played as formations till the don't loose in comparison with the speeders any more.

In the last game I testet the attack bikes with my suggested changes above with additional FF3+. Not all the attack bikes could use it in the combat they fought, because some units where used the intervene a possible countercharge by the enemy gunwaggons against a supporting predator formation by blocking the shortest way to them. The infantry basing allowed this blocking without needing much attack bikes.

The shooting with two heavy bolters is still not very tough. You get 2x6+ if you fire at infantry at cover during advance. They killed 1 Big Gun during shooting and three gunwaggons in two rounds of combat last game. The attack bikes got wiped out in the combat against the 6 Gunwaggons (partly because of the blocking tactic), but breaking them gunwaggons due to BMs from casualities.


To the normal SM bikes:
I would not change there FF to 3+, this would make them to strong. Because CC is usually not so good as FF, so the CC3+ is OK with me, even if the assault marines are still to weak (for 150). I would leave the normal bikes as they are.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:10 pm 
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attack bike is changed to infantry.


Not gonna happen.


2x Heavy Bolter

Not gonna happen.

The model has 1x Heavy Bolter, the models from 40k have 1x Heavy Bolter.




My proposal would simply be:

- 35cm move
- -10pts for each attack bike taken.


That's all it needs IMHO.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:19 pm 
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The attack bike should be treated like normal bikes with better fire and FF and worse CC.

The two modell per unit stand has two bolters. (Its like the destroyers from the necron playtest list they also have 2(-3) models per mounted infantry base and two times the weapons of a single one.)

A formation with only five heavy bolters won't do any damage! and doesn't look very scary. These two per base look great and big.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Hmm - what would you rather, 10 attack bikes or 6 tacticals and 3 rhinos?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:59 pm 
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What role do Attack Bikes fill? What role do LandSpeeders with Heavy Bolters fill?

As i said in Wh40k they cost the same and both can have Heavy Bolters or Multi-Meltas.
Attack Bikes can better fight back in closecombat but LandSpeeders can't be routed and are much harder to hit in closecombat due to be skimmers.

As it seems there is an arbitrary difference in Epic because the LandSpeeders are given Multi-Meltas (which makes them more expensive in WH40k than the Heavy Bolter version).

So  -10points for each added AttackBike should be justified as E&C suggests :)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:23 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 13 2007,15:50)
QUOTE
Hmm - what would you rather, 10 attack bikes or 12 tacticals and 6 rhinos?

Are you talking about my -10pts proposal?


That'd be 10 attack bikes or 6 tacticals & 3 Rhinos.


And I'd still take more Tacticals than I do Attack Bikes, cheers. :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:25 am 
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Bugger, thats what I get writing late at night - edited!

I wonder what the effect of 90+ attack bikes at 3000 points would be? :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:13 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 14 2007,03:25)
QUOTE
Bugger, thats what I get writing late at night - edited!

I wonder what the effect of 90+ attack bikes at 3000 points would be? :)

20 formations of LV's with popguns...

I think it'd most likely get jumped up and down upon piecemeal, worse than the Land Speeder popcorn army because it lacks Macro Weapons.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:42 am 
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The goal of this discussion should be what is the function of attack bike in bike squadron and what is its function as a formation on its own.

For use in the bike formation as a BM placer its stats don't matter as long its not snipered out (so no LV) and fast enough. Also it should be transportable via aircraft (Thunderhawk as well as Landing Craft).

I won't like to see the attack bike formation as a shortcut version of the speeders. The -10pts cost reduction won't chance that and Tornado will still be much superior. The first decision should be: make the attack bike an assault/FF unit or a shooting unit or a combination of both.

I would also try some even more radical changes like for examble (these suggestions would be with 2 models per base/unit):
Attack bike   Inf  speed 35cm  save 4+ CC 5+ FF 4+
2x Heavy Bolter       range 30cm AP5+
Twinlinked Bolters   (small arms)     +1 extra attack
costs +10 or +15 per attack bike upgrade taken

or like
Attack bike   Inf  speed 35cm  save 4+ CC 5+ FF 5+
Heavy Bolter     range 30cm AP5+
Multi Melter       range 15cm MW5+
              AND (small arms)   +1 MW extra attack
cost +10 or +15 per upgrade taken

My first suggestion was
Attack bike   Inf  speed 35cm  save 4+ CC 5+ FF 3+
2x Heavy Bolter       range 30cm AP5+
free upgrade from bike

These proposes are suggestions so that you got something to start with. These are not the final stats, only motivations.

I would like to see some real replies here and a big discussion. And not just "Not gonna happen" even if it's not going to happen. Two attack bikes per base look great and the mounted infantry suggestion is a very old one.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:57 am 
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Attack bike   Inf  speed 35cm  save 4+ CC 5+ FF 4+
2x Heavy Bolter       range 30cm AP5+
Twinlinked Bolters   (small arms)     +1 extra attack
costs +10 or +15 per attack bike upgrade taken


The model doesn't have two heavy bolters.

the model is supplied by SG as a single model, so it can't be mounted infantry either.


Multi Melter       range 15cm MW5+
             AND (small arms)   +1 MW extra attack

The model doesn't have a multi-melta.





These proposes are suggestions so that you got something to start with.

Look, you have to be realistic.

That means you have to work with the models SG supplies, so that new players aren't completely alienated.

Which means that:

- You've got to keep WYSIWYG. (One Heavy Bolter as the standard gun on an attack bike).

- You've got to have Attack Bikes as either Light Vehicles or Armoured Vehicles, because the model is supplied one to a pack.


Within those constraints, feel free to go nuts (Move 45cm, and with Skimmer because they move so fast off of hills!), but you can't change the model that SG sells, sorry.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:59 am 
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Armour 3+ is hard to justify. 3 individual Bikes (= 3 wounds in Wh40k) have armour 4+ and the AttackBikes drives around alone (= 2  Wounds in Wh40k).
It's not that big of a difference.
But perhabs it's THE point where an armour save turns from 4+ to 3+?




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