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Land Raider Crusader
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Well, either way works for me - end result, 2 5+FF attacks plus 1 MW 5+FF attack. However you want to word it. I think that making the multi-melta an extra attack is MUCH clearer and worth breaking the one-weapon-one-statline rule for.

I was rather sure that there was somewhere a precident for the multi-melta being +1 attack MW, but I may have dreamt that up.

FF4+ is an issue because it screws up the multi-melta. The multi-melta should be 5+MW in FF. Up the FF to 4+ and you've got a 4+ MW multi-melta which doesn't conform to any other datafax. I think it would make the Crusader way too good, too.

Even if Land Raiders go to FF4+, the Crusader still seems right at 3xFF5+ (one of which being a MW).
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:20 am 
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If it went to FF4+ it would be one normal and one MW - but since there are two hurricane bolters, seems sensible to give it 3?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:05 pm 
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You could make it: Pait of Hurricane Bolter (15cm) SmallArms +1 EA

So the Crusader would have a 4+ MW baseattack and a 4+ ExtraAttack.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:23 pm 
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*Shrug*

Call it a 'Crusader Multi-Melta' and it's fixed.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:08 pm 
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Melta melta don't have to have a FF5+, its just they do so far - FF remember is the whole package, not one weapon.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:03 pm 
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I would seriously consider keeping the multi-melta attack FF5+MW

Precident - every case of a single multi-melta gives it a FF5+MW attack.
Symmetry - a multimelta is a MW5+ attack. It is only logical that it should provide a FF5+MW attack. If it had FF4+ I would assume there were two multi-meltas firing together.

"Whole package" - it isn't the whole package. You get two attacks from the hurricane bolters, plus one attack from the multimelta. There's the assault cannon, but that's going to be incorporated into the hurricane bolters attacks since they're not MW.

I would seriously avoid giving anything a FF4+ multi-melta. And I don't see the need. Is there really any requirement to make a tank with three FF5+ attacks - one of which is MW - any better? There's about a 70% chance of a FF5+ Crusader causing a hit in firefight, with a 1 in 3 chance that that his will be MW. Compared with even a boosted FF4+ Land Raider only has as 50% chance.

If you up the Crusader to FF4+with 3 attacks, that's an 88% chance of causing at least one hit with a 50% chance of a MW hit. If you think about it, that's considerably better than a tank with FF2+ (83%), even before you consider that it could cause multiple hits and the fact that it has a macro-weapon.

Seriously, Crusaders are fine with FF5+. It may not look like much, but it is pretty good - better than one attack at FF3+.

Edit - ah, I see I misunderstood, you want one MW and one extra. Why? Three 5+ attacks seems more sensible and representative of what the tank can do, and we don't need to go near the thorn of 4+ multi-meltas.
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Soren
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:36 pm 
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For my thoughts it?s OK, if the FF value is compared with a Baneblade on short range. This tank is intended to be a monster close to the enemy. Multimelta against tanks, Hurricane against infantry. More of a topic are the point costs of this monster.

But we should really keep FF on 5+. Else it will be unpayable.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:57 pm 
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Ok finally found this thread after wondering why the Crusader has one 5+FF, and one 5+FF MW in the Scions list (and what about the other lists it is used in?).  Is there another thread about why the Crusader currently has these stats?

I agree with Lord I in this thread that it should be 2x5+ FF and 1x5+ FF MW, (and probably at least 100 points each), which I'd write it as follows:

Speed 25cm
Armour 4+
FF 5+
CC5+
Hurricane Bolters (15cm) Small arms +1EA
Twin Assault cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+
Multi-melta, 15cm, MW5+, and Small Arms MW +1EA
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (may carry two Terminator units OR three of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout units).

I'd make the multi-melta a MW +1EA rather than a modification of the base attack, because I think the base attack should feel like it's a mix of twin linked assault cannons(!) and bolters. Also it gets rid of a messy line of unnecessary text.

Two main reasons:
1. Basic combat feel of the tank - 12 hurricane bolters and 2 assault cannons (with machine spirit and frag launchers) = loadout of 8 terminators. That argues for about equivalent firepower of FF3+, with the multimelta on top.  2x5+ plus the melta would be about right. One 5+ for all those bolters and assault cannons plus machine spirit just doesn't feel right, especially with normal raiders at 4+FF now.
2. Feel of army selection - Ideally it should be a bit rarer and special than normal raiders hence I'd argue for 200-225 for a pair. Currently it feels a bit like the 'cheap'  option.

Even with normal raiders going to 4+FF in Neal's docs, I still think 5+FF with these stats would be good for the crusader.

Thoughts?

P.S. Regarding the Scions list, the Heavy Tactical would have to be reworded, I'd probably make them take 2 Landraiders standard. Then have an upgrade option called Crusader (replace 2 Landraiders with Landraider Crusaders at +50 (or maybe +25) points).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:10 pm 
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I'm confused... The stat line on your version, Markconz, is the same except it adds +1 EA to the multi-melta. That'd make it have FOUR attacks, (+1 for each hurricane pattern bolter, of which it has two, and +1 for the multi-melta), as I understand it. I think the stats as they are in the Scions list are perfectly fine, to be honest.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Yeah I guess the stats alteration is haggling over pretty much nothing... :)

Points - I'll let you know how it goes once I playtest. Once again it is just a very minor thing.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:15 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 08 2007,21:10)
QUOTE
I'm confused... The stat line on your version, Markconz, is the same except it adds +1 EA to the multi-melta. That'd make it have FOUR attacks, (+1 for each hurricane pattern bolter, of which it has two, and +1 for the multi-melta), as I understand it. I think the stats as they are in the Scions list are perfectly fine, to be honest.

Yes sorry Illushia I mean't to write it so that ALL Hurricane bolters added just +1 EA (edited and fixed above post), but agreed it is the same, not meant to be more attacks...

Missed the 2x Hurricane Bolters... as you may have noticed  :blush:

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Land Raider Crusader
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:44 am 
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Watch out when modelling then :)

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