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Land Speeder Tornado

 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:24 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 09 2007,06:33)
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Apr. 09 2007,11:21)
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Take a look at the Imperial Titan weapons in the AMTLv2 realease.  The Gatling Blaster (60cm, 4 attacks, AP4+/AT4+) compared to the Plasma Cannon (60cm, 4 attacks, MW4+, Slow Fire).  Pretty much everbody agrees that the two weapons are equal in capability, the Gatling Blaster has the Jervis Johnson Seal of Approval while the Plasma Cannon has pretty much universal endorsement from us in the Proletariat.  My system doubles the effectiveness of MW weapons and halves their effectiveness if they are slow fire.

Didn't we dissagree about this back then? :) Stuff to do with alpha strikes and there affect on formations breaking, plus the mobility/assault aspect when you are recharging weapons etc.

I fully agree, a 4-shot MW weapon (Even slow firing) is considerably more powerful than a 4-shot AP/AT weapon.

That's one reason that a Plasma Cannon costs 40% more than a Gatling blaster in the weapons costs list (The other reason being the cheap synergy available if you start to pack multiple Plasma Cannons onto a single titan of doom).

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:16 pm 
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For the record, I'm definitely not opposed to tweaking the stats or points.

I don't think the Typhoons look too bad.  As noted, many people think that the Typhoon is better fires support than similar (adjusted) points in Preds.

OTOH, despite the math-hammer looking right on the Tornadoes, they don't seem to show up very often in actual army lists.  A reduced point value would seem to be the simplest mod.  I'd say both +5 points and free exchange are worth testing.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:49 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 09 2007,01:33)
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Apr. 09 2007,11:21)
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Take a look at the Imperial Titan weapons in the AMTLv2 realease. ?The Gatling Blaster (60cm, 4 attacks, AP4+/AT4+) compared to the Plasma Cannon (60cm, 4 attacks, MW4+, Slow Fire). ?Pretty much everbody agrees that the two weapons are equal in capability, the Gatling Blaster has the Jervis Johnson Seal of Approval while the Plasma Cannon has pretty much universal endorsement from us in the Proletariat. ?My system doubles the effectiveness of MW weapons and halves their effectiveness if they are slow fire.

Didn't we dissagree about this back then? :) Stuff to do with alpha strikes and there affect on formations breaking, plus the mobility/assault aspect when you are recharging weapons etc.

When Dysartes did a final call on the stats for the Plasma Cannon I'm pretty sure that you and I, along with several others, pretty much signed off on it without significant complaint.  If there has been any further discussion on the Plasma Cannon I have not been involved in it.

You may be remembering some discussions on the larger brother, the Plasma Destructor.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:10 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Apr. 09 2007,10:16)
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For the record, I'm definitely not opposed to tweaking the stats or points.

I don't think the Typhoons look too bad. ?As noted, many people think that the Typhoon is better fires support than similar (adjusted) points in Preds.

OTOH, despite the math-hammer looking right on the Tornadoes, they don't seem to show up very often in actual army lists. ?A reduced point value would seem to be the simplest mod. ?I'd say both +5 points and free exchange are worth testing.

Thank you for getting this back on topic...  I'm glad to see that you are open to the idea of tweeking the Tornado.

I don't think there is any concerns about the Typhoon, at least not yet.

I think part of the reason why Tornadoes don't show up in army lists too often is because nobody wants to put up with the mental hassle of dealing with units that are supposedly worth an extra 10 points a piece.  When you have a system that has 25 point increments and you see something that goes against that flow your mind subconciously says "I don't want to mess with that."  Never mind that having a full detachment of 5 gives a nice, neat 50 point increase in points cost, the mind goes lazy when it sees the 10 point factor.

At least mine does...

That and Tornadoes are rather bland in their stats.  Base Land Speeders are obviously flying hammers with their multi-meltas and Typhoons are obviously "shoot and scoot" fire support platforms.  Tornadoes are your basic fighting unit - no special tricks, no obvious special tactics.  The Space Marine version of the Eldar Vyper without the snazzy-looking weapons.

I think the other reason why Tornadoes don't show up in army lists that often is because they are not worth their points, and people instinctively know it.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:14 pm 
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Hmm, I agreed to that? I must be going soft in my old age :)

So whats the MA Blarg? International Relations? :)

Oh Blarg something to factor into your system maybe is what proportion of epic games last three turns - as a three turn game gives the same chances to fire as a 4 turn, but obviously doing more damage per turn if its only 3 turns.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:20 pm 
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The perception of the Land Speeder will always be better than of the Tornado simply because there is a lack of MWs on the SM list.  The availability of MWs is what will cause people to choose them over the Tornados the bulk of the time IMO.  This will outweigh any point concerns that are discussed here.  At least they would in my games.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:20 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 10 2007,12:14)
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Hmm, I agreed to that? I must be going soft in my old age :)

So whats the MA Blarg? International Relations? :)

Oh Blarg something to factor into your system maybe is what proportion of epic games last three turns - as a three turn game gives the same chances to fire as a 4 turn, but obviously doing more damage per turn if its only 3 turns.

The masters is a Masters of Operations Management, kind of like an MBA.  Combine that with all of my engineering work experience with Delphi ranging from design, product engineering, being a supervisor, & coordinating engineering prototypes, my Bachelors in engineering technology, and being a US Army ROTC cadet in college I'm hoping that I'll be able to get a good job when Delphi US Operations go belly up.

<<<--->>>

My system assumes a 4 turn game and that the opposing players are both roughly equally skilled and sufficiently skilled.  If you are able to pull out a win in three turns do to tactics, dice, or board set-up then I congratulate you.

<<<--->>>

The Plasma Cannons are good when you have a moderate to low number of opposing units (individual tanks, stands of infantry, etc.) on the board where the MW has meaning and the slow rate of fire is not a problem.  When you start looking at a wall of flesh coming at you (horde of Orks, tide of Tyranids, infantry heavy IG army selections) then the plasma cannons start to become a hindrance and you want the raw rate of fire that the Gatling Blaster gives you.

Yes, you could have an all Plasma Cannon armed Warlord and have an excellent first strike ability against your typical combined arms force or heavy armor force.  (Assuming that they are in range, LOS, etc.)  But if you are opposite a lot of fast, light cav or infantry then your next turn is going to be rough.  You could stagger your fire to fire half one turn and then half the next, but then you are just trading shoot-and-scoot tactics with a constant barrage of fire.  In effect, if you have an all Plasma Cannon armed Warlord it is like a slightly milder version of the all Volcano Cannon armed Warlord; yes you have some awesome firepower, but you are vulnerable to hordes of light/fast stuff.

You can play around with the weapons load to make a nasty killing machine, like arming your Warlord with 2x Plasma Cannons and 2x Chain Fists, allowing you to alpha strike first turn and then wade into CC the next turn.  I may be alone on this, but I don't find this type of a tactic unfair.  If anything, I think it should be expected of Imperial Titans.

Let's face it, Imperial Titans are rather bland and inherently not that good.  The carapace firing arcs are restricted and they don't have any special abilities/rules that give you unusual tactics to exploit, like Holofields, 360 degree firing, high speed, high DC, etc.  What has made Imperial Titans worth taking is their shear flexibility in weapons selection.  Eldar Phantoms compliment the rest of the Eldar Army rather well with their abilities, likewise with the Ork Gargants.  Why can't the Imperial Titans be able to compliment the IG or Space Marines in their own way?

<<<--->>>

All right, enough of the off-topic stuff.  Who's in favor of eliminating the price difference between base Land Speeders and Land Speeder Tornadoes?

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Apr. 10 2007,14:20)
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Who's in favor of eliminating the price difference between base Land Speeders and Land Speeder Tornadoes?

Me.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:04 am 
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I think knock it down to +5 points for now (essentially +25 for the formation).

If its 200 points for speeders or 275 for preds the destructor simply would never be fielded again.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:40 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 10 2007,23:04)
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I think knock it down to +5 points for now (essentially +25 for the formation).

If its 200 points for speeders or 275 for preds the destructor simply would never be fielded again.

OK, OK, OK, I got this one guys...

(clears throat)

So, tell me Chris, if the Land Speeder Tornado were to be 200 points for a detachment of 5 and if the Predator Destructor were to be 275 points for a detachment of 4 (don't forget the FF being changed from 5+ to 4+) why would the Predator Destructor never be fielded again?

If reducing the price of the Land Speeder Tornado is such a bad idea, should we instead raise the price of the base Land Speeder?

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:53 pm 
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First off 'destructors are marginal as it is due to providing AP firepower in a list with far more AP than AT. Currently that fact means the annihilator turns up a lot more if you feel so inclined to risk marine armour (which seems to be a bit more now people are testing the lower costs and using armour on mass). Hence the boost to FF to give it a support role as well as a direct fire role and incidentally making future lists a bit more flexible in how to use it.

Then we turn to the 'cheap' Tornado. I think your system if you compared both would show the tornado has an advantage.

Protection - LV vs AV, but the Tornado can pop up and therefor use cover better which I think levels it out
Mobility - Tornado faster and a skimmer, and after playing endless games with Tau tanks its jarring to go back to non skimmers. Pred though can air drop.
Firepower - Pred has a range advantage, but mostly for laying a blast marker. Tornado twice as good at engaging AV and better at mixed targets like mech companies. Pred has advantage against AP but how much? 12 5+ attacks compared to 10 5+, but there is an almost 50% difference in cost for a 20% diference in firepower there.
CC - Speeder wins hands down. It can choose to enter CC whereas the pred if it gets caught pretty much has to sit there and take it.
FF - Speeder with greater mobility could be availible more easy for support, however is more fragile so it is tricky to do so. In sheer firepower though the preds have 4 4+ compared to 5 5+ - a difference of 2 hits on average for the preds to 1 2/3's for the speeders.

In all of this the Speeders are as good as, slightly better or slightly worse - but with a 75 point difference what would you pick? I'm sure your system would show up similar results though its not a fair test due to the number of differences and variables involved.

As to raising the cost of the basic speeder it is unnessecery. Its role - essentially most useful within 15cm of the enemy - and LV status means its hard to use and keep alive. It is relatively powerful, but its abilities place it in an exposed position.

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 Post subject: Land Speeder Tornado
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:08 pm 
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First off 'destructors are marginal as it is due to providing AP firepower in a list with far more AP than AT. Currently that fact means the annihilator turns up a lot more if you feel so inclined to risk marine armour (which seems to be a bit more now people are testing the lower costs and using armour on mass). Hence the boost to FF to give it a support role as well as a direct fire role and incidentally making future lists a bit more flexible in how to use it.


I think you are overstating the preponderance of AP over AT fire in the Space Marine army.  First off, there Space Marine army is rather firepower weak to begin with, it is mostly an assault force.  Most of the AP firepower comes from short range heavy bolters and weapons that are AP5+/AT6+.  I agree that the FF boost will do a lot to make the Pred. Dest. more flexible.

Then we turn to the 'cheap' Tornado. I think your system if you compared both would show the tornado has an advantage.

I wouldn't compare the Tornado to the Destructor with my system because I can't quantify the Tornado being a LV, skimmer and a scout, plus the value I would place on the speed difference is insufficiently tested and very shaky.  For your information, though, the weapons on the Tornado have a Firepower Potential of 1 while the weapons on the Destructor have a Firepower Potential of 1.583

Protection - LV vs AV, but the Tornado can pop up and therefor use cover better which I think levels it out

Not at 30cm range.  If you're within 30cm range your cover for pop-ups can be easily circumvented by other nearby enemy, or your targets themselves.  It's standard procedure in my Space Marine chapter to exchange business cards with the enemy as they conduct pop-up attacks at 30cm range.  Well, all right, maybe not, but at that short of a range your ability to use terrain is severely limited.

Mobility - Tornado faster and a skimmer, and after playing endless games with Tau tanks its jarring to go back to non skimmers. Pred though can air drop.

The speed difference is negligible because the Land Speeders aren't supposed to operate with the infantry like the Pred.  The Land Speeder (base and Tornados) are like classic cavalry: rapid response, shock attack, exploitive attacks, pickett actions, etc.  The skimmer rules for these two are more for effectively increasing speed than for pop-up attacks.  (As opposed to the Typhoon, which is intended to be a pop-up fire support for the other Land Speeders.)  The Predators, with their speed and motive characteristics exactly like the Rhino, are support tanks to the infantry.

Firepower - Pred has a range advantage, but mostly for laying a blast marker. Tornado twice as good at engaging AV and better at mixed targets like mech companies. Pred has advantage against AP but how much? 12 5+ attacks compared to 10 5+, but there is an almost 50% difference in cost for a 20% diference in firepower there.
CC - Speeder wins hands down. It can choose to enter CC whereas the pred if it gets caught pretty much has to sit there and take it.
FF - Speeder with greater mobility could be availible more easy for support, however is more fragile so it is tricky to do so. In sheer firepower though the preds have 4 4+ compared to 5 5+ - a difference of 2 hits on average for the preds to 1 2/3's for the speeders.

Not to be dismissive of your arguments, but I find these differences pretty minor.

In all of this the Speeders are as good as, slightly better or slightly worse - but with a 75 point difference what would you pick? I'm sure your system would show up similar results though its not a fair test due to the number of differences and variables involved.  

I'd pick whichever filled the intended roll better.  Really, comparing the Land Speeders to Predators is like comparing apples to oranges.  Their mission profiles are significantly different - Land Speeders are operational level manuever forces while Predators are tactical level manuever forces.

The Land Speeders are throw-away forces intended for high speed strikes against high value targets.  (Objectives)  The Scout and Skimmer rules for them are intended merely to let them travel further than conventional forces.  If you get them to last for more than one engagement then count yourself lucky.  Or good.

The Predators are the armor escorts for infantry in Rhinos.  If the infantry are still in the Rhinos then the Predators can keep up pace.  If the infantry dismount then the Predators can manuever for crossfire or other support.

You can use Land Speeders for tactical support, but they'll get killed quickly.  You can use Predators for operational manuevers, but they won't have the speed and will probably get engaged before they reach and objective.

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