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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator
J0k3r
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:46 am 
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Unless you use the justification of specialised ammo as has been sugested.  I think thats enough to justify the different stats.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:50 am 
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Yes but a simple "Thunderer" sounds better than "special ammunition Demolisher" :)

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:37 am 
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Yeah, that is a good point  :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:10 pm 
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How about 'Thunderer Shells'?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:41 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 17 2006,00:26)
QUOTE
Why would our change to the cannon on the Vindicator have to change the cannon on the Demolisher? ?Just change the weapon name on the Vindicator, and leave the Guard list alone. ?

Because... the Vindicator ought to have a Demolisher cannon, not some other weapon?

And because the Demolisher really ought to be slightly better than just AP3+/AT4+. A demolisher hit is considerably more powerful than a twin-las or battlecannon hit in 40K. In terms of strength/damage, it is very comparable to a multi-melta and has the bonus for being an ordinance.

If we don't rename the Vindie's weapon, we'd end up giving the Baneblade 3x Macroweapon FF attacks!  I really don't think that the Baneblade needs that much of a boost, even if the Demolishers could use a boost.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting anything to do with FF, I was suggesting a change from AP3+/AT4+ to MW4+ for the demolisher. Even for the vindicator, I'm not sure MW in FF would be justified.

How about 'Thunderer Shells'?
Or "Siege Shells"

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:43 pm 
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Sorry, I wasn't suggesting anything to do with FF, I was suggesting a change from AP3+/AT4+ to MW4+ for the demolisher. Even for the vindicator, I'm not sure MW in FF would be justified.


I'd cautiously support this.

Or "Siege Shells"

Sounds good to me. I don't have my IA2 with me or I'd look up the most appropriate name (Which is most likely Siege Shells heh).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:55 pm 
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How about this for the Vindicator:

Demolisher  30cm AP3+AT4+ [/i]IgnoreCover[/i]
                  OR
                  30cm MW4+ [/i]Macroweapon[/i], [/i]IgnoreCover[/i]

And then you can add in the notes:
Notes: May either shoot normally or special Siege Shells.

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netepic
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:50 pm 
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I'd stick with just giving it MW4+, keep things simple. Specialised ammunition or renamed gun is irrelevant to me, it would just provide me with a reason to dust off my Vindicators :). There is very little room for vindicators in a marine army as it stands.

See the Marine tacticus that I wrote for incoming (Issue #23), to see my rant on them ;).

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:08 pm 
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(netepic @ Oct. 17 2006,14:50)
QUOTE
I'd stick with just giving it MW4+, keep things simple.

That's my thought, too. MW 4+, ignore cover. Nice and simple.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:11 pm 
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You can't do anything to the Demolisher cannon on the Vindicator that isn't already being done to the Demolisher cannons on the LRuss Demolisher and the Banblade.  One of the core concepts to Epic: Armageddon is that the same weapon on different units will have the same stats.  (The only exception I know is when a weapon is put into use as an anti-aircraft weapon on a unit, in which case an "/AAx+" is added to the stats.

I asked this back in the other thread and there was no response, so I'll ask it here: What is being done with the Baneblade and the LRuss Demolisher over in the IG army list?  If nothing is being done over in the IG list then nothing can be done to the Demolisher Cannon on the Vindicator in the Space Marine list.

But, if you want to change the weapon back to the Thunderer Cannon a'la SM/TL (assuming it is not being used on something else, including the Squat stuff [Collosus?]) then you can make up whatever stats you want.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:37 pm 
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I asked this back in the other thread and there was no response, so I'll ask it here: What is being done with the Baneblade and the LRuss Demolisher over in the IG army list?  If nothing is being done over in the IG list then nothing can be done to the Demolisher Cannon on the Vindicator in the Space Marine list.


Aye I was also concerned about this, thus I'm only moderately supportive of using the 'Siege Shells' name to get around the fact that it's armed with the same cannon as the Demolisher / Baneblade.

If the Vindicator's gun in the Background / 40k rules is no longer a Thunderer Cannon but always a Demolisher Cannon, then we have 0% leeway to change it.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:38 pm 
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Exactly my point, Blarg, which is why I suggested renaming the weapon.  That way we can put stats on the Vindicator to make it useful (Sturmmorser tigers are NASTY, and that's roughly what a Vindicator is, albeit with less armor), without touching the IG list.  Why make our job harder than it needs to be?

You're right, nothing's been heard from the IG side of the house about changes to the Demolisher cannon, although I know that there's a lot of unhappiness about the Baneblade.  I think some of the resistance to change has been from people that were concerned about affecting multiple lists, like your perfectly valid points.  By renaming the Vindicator's weapon, we separate the problem into list-specific needs, which are much easier to address.  This lets us 'fix' the problems with the Marine list, making the Vindicator worthwhile, and lets the IG players fix their problems, without having to have the same 'fix' in both lists.  If they both end up with the same fix, that's just coincidence, not an undesirable artifact of the Design process of the game.

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jfrazell
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:55 pm 
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well if you can't modify the weapon, modify the vehicle:
Make the armor reinforced, or perhaps reduce the save by 1 to 3+ unreinforced?

Having said that, could you improve the effectiveness of the cannon by 1 making it AP/AT 3+? A demolisher round averages 13/14 with the ordnance ability to choose highest dice, whilst a Vanquisher cannon also averages 14. ?A 3+ AT would represent this firepower and improved marine targetting ability vs. the IG versions poorer BS/targetting systems and is directly midlevel between a Vanquisher (AT 2+) and Leman (AT 4+).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:04 pm 
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Exactly my point, Blarg, which is why I suggested renaming the weapon.


Can't be done. The Vindicator's gun in the cannon is a Demolisher Cannon. We do not have free reign to make up our own fluff that directly contradicts the cannon.

well if you can't modify the weapon, modify the vehicle:
Make the armor reinforced, or perhaps reduce the save by 1 to 3+ unreinforced?

I think every SM armoured vehicle except the Land Raider could do with +1 AS. Yep, all of them, they're all too vulnerable than the Background / 40k rules suggest, especially considering Marines would be especially adept at taking advantage of ground cover.




Personally I think a MW-level attack is justified for the Demolisher cannon, full stop. It should be pointed appropriately from there, for both armies.




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