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White Scars Review
dptdexys
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:52 pm 
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you could add a note to show that the khan cannot be upgraded to the supreme commander (and not allowing a cheaper purchase of one).
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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:37 pm 
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Yes- good point.  Do you think that this is making the commander rules too unwieldy?  I am trying to avoid having the Khan as a separate upgrade choice to keep it simple and avoid issues like having 2 commanders for a unit.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:12 am 
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You could just do what i did - +25 for khan, +25 on top of that for commander +25 on top of that for SC.

As for bikes has it occured to drop them in a thunderhawk? Rather powerful trick that when you are the same size as the max transport capacity....

No need for them to be seperated off, they can still be held off board and its a neat trick too - for 375 points compare to 2 lots of assault marines - only 25 points more for 4+ FF not 5+ FF.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:44 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 08 June 2006 (00:12))


As for bikes has it occured to drop them in a thunderhawk? Rather powerful trick that when you are the same size as the max transport capacity....

No need for them to be seperated off, they can still be held off board and its a neat trick too - for 375 points compare to 2 lots of assault marines - only 25 points more for 4+ FF not 5+ FF.

My mistake, when I said drop pod I was actually meaning t'haks as drop pods cant carry bikes, D'oh :oops:

I was struck by this tactic as soon as I saw the 8 unit size of the whitescar bikes and can see that it would be a very neat trick.

I guess I like the idea of a bike hoard being supported by planetary assault at pinpoint targets- do you object to this for balance reasons?  If so I would be willing to make only scout formations able to deploy on board if any unit uses drop pods.

You could just do what i did - +25 for khan, +25 on top of that for commander +25 on top of that for SC.


I see what you mean and it is a much cleaner solution. I missed the subtlety first time round. It will be in the 1.3 list.




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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:52 am 
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ok, new version up.  looks a bit prettier and have incorporated Chris's Khan suggestions.

Updated Whitescar List v1.3




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Ilushia
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:06 am 
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When drafting Space Wolves the 'Terminators don't Teleport' rule came up as well... Our eventual decision was to drop them back by 25 points compared to normal Terminators to account for this. Yes, you can still drop them in THawks, but a 25 point price break isn't enough to seriously impact how many you can take (You'd need to take 12 units of them in order to be able to afford an extra from the point-break!) But it means they're viable to take as a garrisoning force as well as an air-drop option. Ofcourse they then picked up the Manditory Leader for Wolves and went to 375 points each... But that's something else  :laugh:
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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:54 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 08 June 2006 (04:06))
When drafting Space Wolves the 'Terminators don't Teleport' rule came up as well... Our eventual decision was to drop them back by 25 points compared to normal Terminators to account for this. Yes, you can still drop them in THawks, but a 25 point price break isn't enough to seriously impact how many you can take (You'd need to take 12 units of them in order to be able to afford an extra from the point-break!) But it means they're viable to take as a garrisoning force as well as an air-drop option. Ofcourse they then picked up the Manditory Leader for Wolves and went to 375 points each... But that's something else  :laugh:

I thought I didnt pull the 25 point break from thin air, I must have been thinking of the SW list.  On the balance I think Terminator cost should stay at 300 pounts for just now given that ive included cut price land raiders.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:57 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 08 June 2006 (01:06))
Quote (J0k3r @ 08 June 2006 (00:44))
I guess I like the idea of a bike hoard being supported by planetary assault at pinpoint targets- do you object to this for balance reasons?  If so I would be willing to make only scout formations able to deploy on board if any unit uses drop pods.

Maybe - I get the imagery of the bike hordes being the primary unit  in a brotherhood- it would be they who do the bulk of the fighting so they would be the ones guided in not vice verse.

Hmm, i see your point and it is a good one.  Its a no brainer that scouts have to be deployed on the table as this is the only way to field land speeders.  Does anyone else have an opinion on this?  ???

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nealhunt
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:14 pm 
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Maybe I misread it, but the way I recall the transport rule only units which could be drop podded have to be dropped.  The options are transport/air assault (one or the other mandatory, but you can mix and match) or drop pod everything available.

Bikes can't be in drop pods, so there wouldn't need to be a specific exception for them.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:34 pm 
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Not anywhere near my books right now, but I was under the impression that the Khan of a Brotherhood was equivalent of a Company Captain.

Either which way, why on earth do the WS need veteran sergeants? They're not visible at Epic level for Codex Marine chapters, so why WS?

I don't think it is needed. They can have Captains, Chaplains and Librarians like everyone else!

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:34 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 08 June 2006 (20:51))
Quote (J0k3r @ 08 June 2006 (17:54))
On the balance I think Terminator cost should stay at 300 pounts for just now given that ive included cut price land raiders.

Wow, my most effective assault unit (terminators in Thunderhawks) gets a discount and a boost from the proposed to hit rules. Bargin :)

Land Raider wise you could say terminators base cost 450 and LR upgrade 200 points for 4. As only they can take them only they need to be balanced against them. Or 250 and 400 etc. You just have to get right the terminators cost when being used by aircraft (as this is there only other option).

This is the bit im least confident about- I dont own any Terminators so havent got a feel for fielding them, however whenever ive played against them ive seen how devastating they can be.

Currently termies + 4LR come in at 725pts.  Going by the original WS list a 50 point reduction was applied to the combined unit (675) which could equate to 325 point termies and 350 point LR....

How about 350 points for terminators and 300 for Land Raiders.  This entices you to field Terminators in LR which feels right for the WS.  Also given the fact that there is a general feeling that Terminators are too cheap, this brings them in line with suggested points increases
(Marine Suggestions thread).  If there the suggested core SM price tweakage goes through this could be re-evaluated?

Also do white scars have any dreds? If so, or if its just one or two give the terminators the dred upgrade. Obviously only of use in a lander, but still potentially interesting.


Unfortunatley the official list says that WS find the thought of dreadnoughts an outrage- preferring to cremate their fallen.  It would be interesting to allow them as a terminator upgrade, but for fluff reasons probably shouldnt happen.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 08 June 2006 (21:14))
Maybe I misread it, but the way I recall the transport rule only units which could be drop podded have to be dropped.  The options are transport/air assault (one or the other mandatory, but you can mix and match) or drop pod everything available.

Bikes can't be in drop pods, so there wouldn't need to be a specific exception for them.

Your absolutely right as usual neil, thanks for clarifying- always thought that made the list too weak. Reading the rules more carefully says:

".... all transported detachments in
the army must deploy from drop pods ? you
can?t have some in transport vehicles and some
deploying from drop pods."

Ill remove the mention of bikes forthwith!

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm 
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Quote (Lord Inquisitor @ 08 June 2006 (22:34))
Not anywhere near my books right now, but I was under the impression that the Khan of a Brotherhood was equivalent of a Company Captain.

Either which way, why on earth do the WS need veteran sergeants? They're not visible at Epic level for Codex Marine chapters, so why WS?

I don't think it is needed. They can have Captains, Chaplains and Librarians like everyone else!

Lord =I=

You may well be right, I dont own a 40k WS army and have undertaken to revise this list to get some momentum going as id like to field them in E:A.

The idea of fielding an upgraded leader came about as a suggestion to make the bikes more worthy of a 400 points cost.  As the list has evolved the name Khan was proposed and I like the sound of it.

The main reason for introducing the character is for flavour and to give the WS a bit of an edge to make up for their many restrictions.  I agree that extra units should be introduced sparingly, however for all the deployment and heavy weapon limitations the only new unit is the bikes.  I see this idea of a Lieutenant-level character as in fitting with the WS and hopefully not overpowering them, however they will need to be playtested first to see if this is true.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:52 pm 
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Incidentally, thanks for all the feedback- its been very stimulating and I think the list is approaching completion.  Now, if anyone wants to playtest it?  ???    :)

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Mephiston
 Post subject: White Scars Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:56 pm 
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Thinking of building a second marine force so might have a go...got loads of old bikes kicking around somewhere!

One other person at my local GW is thinking about playing whitescars too..
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