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More firepower for marines
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:05 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 17 May 2006 (16:58))
As it does not appear in the Chaos list (different pattern) I think that tweak can be done painlessly.

As the Chaos list is not yet official now is the time to strike FF upgrade wise. Otherwise you would have the bizzare situation that a tank with 2 heavy bolter and 1 autocannon would have lower FF than a tank with better armour, 2 heavy bolter and 4 lascannon.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Quote (Suvarov454 @ 18 May 2006 (04:15))
Quote (Ilushia @ 17 May 2006 (19:21))
Honestly I like their infantry as-is. The only thing I can think of which really doesn't feel right to me is their total lack (Or near-total lack) of weapons with a range longer then 45 cm. In the entire army there are only 3 weapons with a range more then 45 cm. The Hunter, the Thunderhawk's battle-cannon and a Whirlwind while using Indirect Fire. This really doesn't feel right at all to me. Space Marines are supposed to ?be an elite strike-force. What kind of elite strike force has so little ability to take out enemies at extreme range? Or at least damage them.

While I agree that the Marine Armor needs some help, and that the Marines list doesn't have enough winning strategies to choose from (Air Assault, Drop Pods, and very little else), I am mildly annoyed with this statement. ?

Let's ignore initiative rules that make it very risky to try sustain or advance orders. ?The only things in the Ork army with a 60 cm range are Gargants, Super Stompas, and Oddboyz and there is no Indirect weapons at all. ?As for 45 cm range... there's Gargants, Big Gunz that don't mob up, Stompas that everyone agrees cost too much, War Engines that are formation upgrades, and the Blitz Brigade. ?OK, so the Blitzers are very nice; a Big BB compares very well to a Devastator detachment for CC and firing, but it trades FF, armor, and cover for extra mobility that can't be shot away.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Boyz: they're cheap enough to get lots of them to survive casualties, you can't keep blast markers on the Warbands, and the list is flexible enough so you can do anything with them. ?In general, however, Marines outshoot them, and Marine armor and TSKNF means that they ignore hits. ?By all means, follow Neal's recommendations to make Marine armor more attractive. ?If absolutely necessary, give them a new tank with long range. ?

Just please stop saying how poor they are at shooting... they are not the army that's worst at shooting.

Actually I've been thinking about this one too. Orks may be the only army worse then Marines when it comes to shooting on an individual basis, but Orks also outnumber marines by a LOT. They can afford to sustain casualties while closing to shooting range, then moving up and firing before assaulting the enemy the next turn. Marines can't. With only a handful of bases for their price, they'll get killed long before they close to anything like acceptable shooting range. Even with their transport. And more to the point, with basically every army but Orks if they're within shooting range of the enemy, the enemy can sustain-fire back on them. That just doesn't feel right to me. Do I think the Orks are worse at shooting the Marines? Maybe, probably not, while Orks aren't as 'good' individually you'll get more then twice as many shots 90% of the time for the same cost. Oddboyz and other things also swing it in Orks' favor. The Space Marines really don't have the capacity to advance into dangerous territory where enemy tanks are effectively. Leman Russ outrange them so badly it's kinda sad. Do Orks get long range? No. Do Orks NEED long-range? As you pointed out, they already can basically do whatever they want with a unit. Space Marines can't. They don't have the size or endurance to survive being pounded on their way to close range.

PS Sorry for the spammage  :laugh:
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nealhunt
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:32 pm 
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I've done this firepower analysis many times.  Orks and Marines are about equal in ranged shooting per point in most instances because the Marines will have fewer movment-related firing penalties.  In the rare case where Orks successfully Sustain Fire they are actually significantly better.

Marines can compensate to a certain extent by using fire/support combos to effectively boost the number of shots they take per stand but it does require assaults and imho does not go far enough.

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Suvarov454
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:18 am 
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BAH!!! ?:angry: :p

All your counter-arguments and well reasoned responses have forced me to remind you all that Marines can Sustain any time they want (unless they have a BM), and that Orks are usually Doubling. ?Yes, 30 shots at 6 produce just about the same number of hits as 16 shots at 5. ?30 shots at 7, however, is only one third to one quarter the hits of 16 shots at 4. ?And things get worse when you factor in armor saves.

The Zzap guns are very good. ?You didn't include the cost of adding 3 Big Gunz to the 'Uge Warband, however, making the additional cost 225, not 150. ?For that, the two Devestator squads each get a Hunter (giving the Marines the same range) and 2 Razorbacks (which add 2x 45cm range shots at 4+). ?Or you could go crazy and give the Devastators 8 Razorbacks. ?Or even spot the Marines another 25 points and give them a third Devastator detachment.

Manufactured situations aren't very realistic, I'll grant you. ?A 'Uge Warband or Mekboy Gunmob with 3 Zzap Gunz is far more likely than two tricked out Devastator detachments. ?I will concede the point, however. ?I really haven't played that many games to really know how the Orks and Marines play. ?Each time I've played, the Marines have shot multiple Ork formations to breaking, but it has taken a LOT of effort, requiring several activations. ?The Orks have had some success, mostly at taking down Rhinos (which cause BMs, and leaves Marine stands without cover).

If you think that, over all, across the entire army (and not just for certain specific formations, chosen as part of a manufactured situation), you think Orks can out-shoot Marines, I humbly defer to your greater experience.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:42 am 
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My issue isn't so much so that the Marines can't theoretically out-shoot the Orks. It's that the Marines have to get so close to the Orks to shoot them that the Orks can close the range very easily and wind up in melee with the Marines. Hence my comment about how their standard troops work fine for me, I just think they need a bit more long-range firepower. They CAN shoot (Not as well as some other armies) but they have to get very close to the enemy to do so. Close enough that infantry double-moving will get into 15cm of them. Tanks taking engage actions can likewise do so. No doubt the marines will do quite a bit of damage to a standard mob, but consider that the Marines move up to fire on the Orks. The Orks take a double forward to shoot the marines... The marines now have a choice. They can hold position and fire on the orks with Sustained Fire, take out a bit of their numbers and place a bunch of blast markers... Or they can run away to avoid becoming stuck in an assault with the orks. Most of the times the prior is actually a GOOD thing for the Orks. Sure you'll lose more bases this way, but you'll now get into melee with the beakies and be able to do quite a  bit of damage to them, especially outnumbering them by so much.

It's not just about 'who can cause more casualties' either. It's also about 'who can sustain  more casualties' and 'who can afford to stand and shoot instead of run away'. Even if 1 marine kills 2 orks before dieing, the Orks will still win in the end. The Marines have to  be able to kill almost 4 Orks each before they die in order to match the Orks' ability to absorb damage.
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Steele
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:40 am 
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@Ilushia:
Boomer Missile Tank
Type: AV, Speed: 30cm, Armour: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 6+
Weapons:
Guided Melta-Missiles, Range: 90cm, AP4+/AT4+, Ignore Cover."

This would put it better than the Tau Stingray , I don?t think that Imperial Vehicles should be on par with Tau or Eldar regarding long Range Missile Fire. But there is still the Vulture with its 120cm One Shot Missiles at AT2+..... For soften up larger Formations ,I think the Guard is better suited for this kind of fire mission.

Cheers!
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tneva82
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:43 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (02:42))
The marines now have a choice. They can hold position and fire on the orks with Sustained Fire, take out a bit of their numbers and place a bunch of blast markers... Or they can run away to avoid becoming stuck in an assault with the orks.

Or they can assault them in FF.

Marines aren't supposed to sit still and trade fire. That's simply overkill in terms of resources(all those genetically enchanced super warriors in their armour that can survive small arm fire at will sitting still while 1 of them fires with his missile launcher?).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:29 pm 
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Quote (Steele @ 19 May 2006 (11:40))
@Ilushia:
Boomer Missile Tank
Type: AV, Speed: 30cm, Armour: 4+, CC: 6+, FF: 6+
Weapons:
Guided Melta-Missiles, Range: 90cm, AP4+/AT4+, Ignore Cover."

This would put it better than the Tau Stingray , I don?t think that Imperial Vehicles should be on par with Tau or Eldar regarding long Range Missile Fire. But there is still the Vulture with its 120cm One Shot Missiles at AT2+..... For soften up larger Formations ,I think the Guard is better suited for this kind of fire mission.

Cheers!
Steele

I... WOuld not qualify that as being better then a Stingray. Yes, it has 90cm range instead of 75cm range. On the other hand when firing guided the Stingray doesn't need LoS, gets 3 shots at 75cm (compared to 1 at 90cm) and moves as a skimmer. In terms of range it may be a bit long to make it 90cm. But I don't think it's a 'better' unit then the Stingray. In fact, a Stingray group backed up by someone to spot for them could take these out fairly easily IMHO.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Quote (tneva82 @ 19 May 2006 (13:43))
Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (02:42))
The marines now have a choice. They can hold position and fire on the orks with Sustained Fire, take out a bit of their numbers and place a bunch of blast markers... Or they can run away to avoid becoming stuck in an assault with the orks.

Or they can assault them in FF.

Marines aren't supposed to sit still and trade fire. That's simply overkill in terms of resources(all those genetically enchanced super warriors in their armour that can survive small arm fire at will sitting still while 1 of them fires with his missile launcher?).

This is true. But then they're still looking at fighting many times their own number in Orks. 25-30 orks is a fairly good estimate. And that makes it quite likely that the Orks will win the fight. Can you go for a clipping assault at the edge and try to break the orks? Sure. Should you have to? Maybe. I'd just like to see Marines have more viable options then playing bullet-tag at 300 yards with the enemy every time. Space Marines are supposed to be the most elite force in the Imperium. The best there is, and possibly the best in the galaxy. It just feels really odd to me that such a force would not be set up to hammer enemy positions at long range before their super-powered, hard to produce and extremely rare troops get there. Cuts down on casualties for the Marines. And in a game-sense it prevents the Marines from winding up in a position where you've got say 20 orks running all over your position because you couldn't kill any before they closed from 60cm to 10cm on their buggies. It isn't so much that the Marines don't have effective tactics once they are up close, I'd just like them to have some effective tactics when they're NOT up close. For when they fight folks like Tau and IG who are not going to get into assault range, and  who are going to put forth a lot of effort to AVOID being assaulted. As it stands a Russ Company for instance can back off 25cm from them and open up with their battle cannons. Go for the Rhinos, take oout even one and the formation's walking. Now they have to double move to keep up with you, and you can hang them out to dry just by outmaneuvering them.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:57 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (14:37))
Space Marines are supposed to be the most elite force in the Imperium. The best there is, and possibly the best in the galaxy. It just feels really odd to me that such a force would not be set up to hammer enemy positions at long range before their super-powered, hard to produce and extremely rare troops get there.

This is very true.

Here's an idea (I'm not sure it's mine, I seem to remember reading a similar suggestion somewhere else... please excuse my poor, exhausted brain and all the holes in it): why not give the Marines some kind of orbital support? Something along the lines of what they get with a Strike Cruiser, but perhaps less powerful. Or perhaps not, as that would give them some much needed MW weapons and/or TK shots (with pin-point attacks).

The MW barrage would still use the large template and could be placed anywhere on the table (no predetermined coordinates), but the BP value could be reduced to 3 (one template only) so as to reduce its power to a more reasonable level. The Marine player could also choose to use a MW2+, TK(D3) pin-point attack instead.

Of course, these stats are not those of a Marine spacecraft and I've no idea what a fair poins value would be for such a unit, but perhaps something could be done about that, what do you think?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 19 May 2006 (14:57))
Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (14:37))
Space Marines are supposed to be the most elite force in the Imperium. The best there is, and possibly the best in the galaxy. It just feels really odd to me that such a force would not be set up to hammer enemy positions at long range before their super-powered, hard to produce and extremely rare troops get there.

This is very true.

Here's an idea (I'm not sure it's mine, I seem to remember reading a similar suggestion somewhere else... please excuse my poor, exhausted brain and all the holes in it): why not give the Marines some kind of orbital support? Something along the lines of what they get with a Strike Cruiser, but perhaps less powerful. Or perhaps not, as that would give them some much needed MW weapons and/or TK shots (with pin-point attacks).

The MW barrage would still use the large template and could be placed anywhere on the table (no predetermined coordinates), but the BP value could be reduced to 3 (one template only) so as to reduce its power to a more reasonable level. The Marine player could also choose to use a MW2+, TK(D3) pin-point attack instead.

Of course, these stats are not those of a Marine spacecraft and I've no idea what a fair poins value would be for such a unit, but perhaps something could be done about that, what do you think?

The concept is neat... But I have trouble with anything which can bring down concentrated fire that size and can't be hurt in return. Something like that could potentially wreck an enemy formation every turn (I'm assuming you mean it'll hang around all game) and there'd be absolutely nothing the enemy can do about it at all... I'd like any solution to remain in the 'possible to deal with by enemy' catagory, since that's far more fair and entertaining then a weapon which can blow away whole formations and can't be hurt in return.

As it happens this kind of artillery I'm describing is what, fluff-wise, the Battle Barge does. It's main cannons are built to blow away enemy entrenched formations and hammer their defenses before the marines hit them where it hurts. IRL we use bombing raids and long-range artillery, along with tanks, to support the infantry. All of which can outstrip an infantry's range by an order of mangitude easily. I'm not saying the Marines should get more artillery (They really shouldn't, they don't seem the type to me to do that), but something with a real long range which can be used to soften up targets before the marines move in is all I'm after. 4-6 units with long range which can sit at the rear of the army and hound the enemy's position as they advance. I think this'd help a lot with the Marines' inability to stand and fight instead of air-dropping/drop podding into battle.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (15:11))
I'd like any solution to remain in the 'possible to deal with by enemy' catagory, since that's far more fair and entertaining then a weapon which can blow away whole formations and can't be hurt in return.

Hmm... true enough.

How about allowing the SM characters (or perhaps Captains only, or perhaps even Supreme Commander only) to call for an orbital barrage or a pin-point attack?

Again, this would have to be costed properly, but at least the opponent could get rid of the barrages/pin-point attacks by destroying the character/captain/SC.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 19 May 2006 (15:29))
Quote (Ilushia @ 19 May 2006 (15:11))
I'd like any solution to remain in the 'possible to deal with by enemy' catagory, since that's far more fair and entertaining then a weapon which can blow away whole formations and can't be hurt in return.

Hmm... true enough.

How about allowing the SM characters (or perhaps Captains only, or perhaps even Supreme Commander only) to call for an orbital barrage or a pin-point attack?

Again, this would have to be costed properly, but at least the opponent could get rid of the barrages/pin-point attacks by destroying the character/captain/SC.

If you went for something like that I'd make it the SC only... And only at a target within his LoS. Effectively making it a weapon he adds to his squad or the like. Mostly because this is supposed to be a special-use weapon, directed by someone on the ground. Only a Supreme Commander would have the authority to call for such a strike, and this prevents people from loading up on characters just to let you flatten large numbers of enemies.

I have some personal issues with Ortillary in miniatures-games, but that's beside the point. I don't think it's needed for it to be anything near as strong as a MW Barrage attack, all it really needs to be is a weapon with a 75-90cm range and reasonable attack numbers. 4+ would be ideal, IMHO, as it'd give you range and punch to hurt the enemy. You could double it across the board to shoot someone or hold still and fire at 3+. Both are good options and it gives Marines some ability to recieve a charge from the enemy as well as advancing on the ground into the enemy. As opposed to trying to hoof it, or truck it as the case may be, and recieving heavy enemy fire while you do so because you have to double just to get within weapon range, then the enemy can sustain on you.
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Xisor
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 5:45 pm 
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Unlike the 'anti-titan' requirements for a Marine force[which is often either 'take Landspeeders' or 'take a titan], I feel that for Space Marines, fluffwise, their true long range support comes from one of very few places:

- Imperial Guard on the same operation
- Titans and assorted other Adeptus Mechanicus forces

Marines, under the strictures of the Codex Astartes *have* to be dependent upon the other organisations for that reason. Much like in BFG where Marines are generally 'forbidden' from mounting proper 'anti-ship' weaponry, like long-range lances[ignoring the Sedition Opprimere].

I'm far more in favour of allowing Marines a greater flexibility at close ranges, in both Epic and BFG. Upping their firepower at close ranges seems the ideal way to go. It doesn't give them the option of 'long range duelling' with enemy cannons, but it does allow them the opportunity to be shooting and not firefighting at close ranges.

Again, the 'options' for something like a 'Multi Melta' devastator squad, or the aforementioned TK Vindicator[I like the proposal of  Demolisher Cannon: 'current stats' plus/or a TK1 @ 15cm or something along those lines] seem far more 'in line' for Marines, increasing their options *within* their scope, but not increasing their scope itself.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: More firepower for marines
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:36 pm 
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Quote (Xisor @ 21 May 2006 (17:45))
Unlike the 'anti-titan' requirements for a Marine force[which is often either 'take Landspeeders' or 'take a titan], I feel that for Space Marines, fluffwise, their true long range support comes from one of very few places:

- Imperial Guard on the same operation
- Titans and assorted other Adeptus Mechanicus forces

Marines, under the strictures of the Codex Astartes *have* to be dependent upon the other organisations for that reason. Much like in BFG where Marines are generally 'forbidden' from mounting proper 'anti-ship' weaponry, like long-range lances[ignoring the Sedition Opprimere].

I'm far more in favour of allowing Marines a greater flexibility at close ranges, in both Epic and BFG. Upping their firepower at close ranges seems the ideal way to go. It doesn't give them the option of 'long range duelling' with enemy cannons, but it does allow them the opportunity to be shooting and not firefighting at close ranges.

Again, the 'options' for something like a 'Multi Melta' devastator squad, or the aforementioned TK Vindicator[I like the proposal of ?Demolisher Cannon: 'current stats' plus/or a TK1 @ 15cm or something along those lines] seem far more 'in line' for Marines, increasing their options *within* their scope, but not increasing their scope itself.

Xisor

Personally I just don't feel that these 'solutions' actually solve the problem in question. My basic issue with Marines is the ability of the enemy to hammer them, badly, long before they get into range. Marines just do not have the numbers to survive being bombarded at long range while they try to get into range of their weapons. And I'm not seeing how 'more short range uber-shootyness' is going to solve that. Orks are really the only army which has shorter range then Marines, and they're much more mobile. The Eldar might be arguably in the same boat as the Marines, but with their Hit and Run rules they can move forward, shoot, then run away (forcing the enemy to persue instead of sustain) while the marines can't do anything like that. If the marines double forward to get within 15cm and fire on an enemy with their multi-melta dev-squads then virtually any enemy in the game can either sustain fire back on them or charge them in melee and make them pay for it. This just doesn't feel like a good solution to me (I'd much rather have Land Speeders then Multi-Melta Dev-Squads anyway, given their mobility and Scout rules making them harder to bombard).

This does help make the marines more shooty, but it doesn't assist them where they get really hurt: Getting into shooty range. A Space Marine Tactical formation theoretically has the same fire-power as an IG Infantry Formation (Slightly worse, but only very slightly), on the other hand the IG infantry formation can sustain significantly more casualties then the Marines can. And more to the point, when fighting marines the IG Infantry can afford to sit back and let the marines come to them, since they're backed up by long-range fire weapons 90% of the time (Manticore Batteries are my favorite) and that means the Marines either close to short range FAST or they get cut down by artillery. So the Marines double forwards in their Rhinos, open up on the IG, kill 1-2 and place 2-3 blast markers. THe IG respond by sustaining fire and shooting back with 6 AP 4+ shots. Killing 1-2 marine bases. The marines, being outnumbered, lose that fight badly.

This is just the way I see things, and I'll admit I'm not the most experienced person around. Yes the Marines can air-drop their dev/tactical squads into the IG. But we all know that, the point of this conversation is: Should Marines be FORCED to use air drops and assaults to win the day?
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