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Marine Changes

minitj

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:11 pm

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I like th eidea of a dreadnought formation - we used to have them, why not again?

Also, some new devastator would be awesome....6mm heavy bolters:angry:

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:25 pm

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The Vindicator was discussed with an extra FF attack, as well. According to IA2, the Vindicator is just slightly (68kph v 72kph, IIRC) slower than a Predator. It has the same armor. (I don't think I've ever seen one without 2 stormbolters, Power of the Machine Spirit, extra armor, and smoke, in 40k) By rights, it should have a 30cm speed.

I always saw a Vindicator as a Sturmmorser Tiger, not a STuG or STuH, but :shrug:

I would support a Decrease in FF with an added FF attack.

Attack bikes. Speed increase would be good. I don't think they need anything else.

What's that quote from the Dreadnoughts article ... "No serious assault can start without a formation of Dreadnoughts spearheading the attack" ?

Are there any other questions about wanting a Dread Formation?

Slightly OT, I'd like to see new Devs, too, that look more like the current versions (the best HW Marines IMO).

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Xisor

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:15 pm

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As an addition to the points people have already put, perhaps it would be good to represent the additional variant formations that Marines are likely to deploy. Now, allowing for the complexity of 40k is not what I mean, but on thinking further with regards to the Salamanders list elsewhere, the idea of a firefighting-oriented stand.

Looking at the 'new' marine armies that are plausible, it's not unreasonable to have 2* Special Weapons in many armies, or even now a SW/MM combo. Thus, I propose exactly that:

Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 15cm 4+ 4+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolters (15cm) Small Arms -
Multimelta 15cm MW5+ and -
Small Arm Macro-weapon

Notes: The multi melta can shoot and be used to confer the macro-weapon ability to the units firefight value

Seems fair enough to me, drastic drop in range and flexibility, but quite an incease in specific ability.

Seems a logical step forward in adding to the ability of Marines without totally shifting the balance too much eitherway.

Xisor

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:24 pm

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Same would be to switch the missile launcher with a lascannon. It looses it AP value but is more effective against AV.

Or the plama cannon: combines the good part of the missile launcher (AP+5) with the good part of the lascannon (AT5+), but has Slow Firing.

The sole drowback would be the heavy bolter. In relation to the missile launcher it looses its AT-power totally and looses 15cm of its range in exchange for nothing.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:19 pm

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I believe that's why Marines just have a 'Missile Launcher' to represent all the different weapons. Similar to how the Guard have autocannons, even though I've never seen a guardsman with one in 40k. I do not believe that level of detail is worth it on an infantry stand. On vehicles, yes, just not infantry.

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Xisor

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:01 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
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That's my point, only representing the two different ends of the spectrum seems the most manageable of the options.

Missile Launcher can 'almost' account for the Plasma Cannon and Heavy Bolter too, the Lascannon is pushing it, but range wise it seems fair to stick with the Missile launcher, it does cost the same in 40k, so they 'should' be as equally effective. Since the MM is the same price as the ML then I don't see the problem. Opposite ends of the Spectrum, covers all bases and represents most things.

For example, the MM combo could just as equally be roughly 2 Plasmaguns or 2 Meltaguns. Seems similar enough to be 'paramaterised' into the system.

Xisor

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:32 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

Nooo Xisor, thats my secret idea for a salamander list!
Curses.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:54 pm

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Alright, I see your point. It'd also give the Marines some much-needed MW attacks as a foil against WE-heavy formations. I'd just make it MW5+, and Extra FF Attack (MW). It's not the unit's only weapon (like it is on the Landspeeder), so it should add an extra attack (didn't I say this on the old SG forums about the MM on a LRC?).

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Xisor

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:18 pm

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Hmm, I think that essentially, with the addition of this, there'd also be relatively little need for a Salamanders list 'seperate', it'd simply be what you pick anyway!(ie it'd be a distinct style of play, like the RavenGuard, that'd distinguish your army, not the abundance of special rules).

Lion: Eitherway, between mine and yours, one of them is likely fair enough and balanced enough. What about the 3+ on FF? I mean, a multimelta is pretty impressive up close, and the squad'd generally be more 'geared' to firefighting than if you were expecting to spend most of the time throwing out Missiles at a distance. Perhaps not though.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:01 am

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I'd rather have two attacks than one. Base Marine is FF4+, right? You'd be looking at FF4+ and a MW (FF) attack. Times 6 stands in a Tac det. On the averages, that's 3 FF hits +3 MW, ouch.

Besides, the Multimelta is a point-target weapon (single shot, no blast, except the exploding tank!)

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Jaldon

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:21 am

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The problem with the right stats for Vindicator is that this kind of the vehicle is not used today. The Vindicator is not a tank, as it lacks turret. It is an self-propelled assault cannon, very similar to German StuG III from WWII - Sturmgesch?tz III (officially Gepanzerter Selbstfahrlafette f?r Sturmgesch?tz 7.5cm Kanone)

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/stug.htm
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/sturmi1.html

As this kind of weapon was used only by Germans, I have read the Osprey book about it, which quoted German military manuals and reports from officers about this weapon.

Sorry I just couldn't let this one pass before posting more on the subject.

(1) Not only the Germans used Assault Guns in WWII. Soviets used JSU-122, JSU-152, SU-85, SU-100, all of which are Assault Guns.

(2) The old Soviet Union was still fielding Assault Guns and there is no reason to believe they have been withdrawn from service. ASU-57, ASU-85, SU-130.

I really don't think you are going to see a change to how the SM are armed, much less Tacticals getting anykind of MW.

Jaldon

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Legion 4

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:00 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

Jaldon is again correct ... The Vindy, though neat, has no real "doppelganger" in 21st Century warfare ... But I like the concept and realize, save for the Tau, and maybe the Eldar, the 40K Uni is a Hi-tech version of WWII ! ? Which I like too, retro-cyber-sci-fi !!! :laugh:

Oh BTW, don't forget the Italian Semovette M75/18 ! :o0

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Xisor

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:17 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515

I really don't think you are going to see a change to how the SM are armed, much less Tacticals getting anykind of MW.

Why not? Surely, if balanced it'd make a fine FOM article at asbolute minimum?

I mean, it's not as if Space Marines are the biggest/widest/best force in Epic. I don't see why trying to make them a bit more worthwhile would be out of the questions, especially when(to me at least) it seems so simple.

Xisor

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Legion 4

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:42 pm

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I don't know guys ... "It's a poor gunner that blames his weapon for his failure to hit the target ... " :;):

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Marine Changes

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:32 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Is anyone arguing that Astartes have a hard time dealing with WE-heavy formations? I've noticed quite a bit of concern on the AMTL and OGBM lists about how poorly Marines fare against them. The comment that stands out in my mind is that the main way to kill Titans that Marines have is assaulting Termies. They just can't handle heavy armor without a supporting titan, and if they've only got a pair of Warhounds facing a couple Warlords...

Adding a 'new' infantry type, the Marine Support squad, with a Multimelta vice a missile launcher, wouldn't be that big a deal, IMO.

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