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Storm Raven Unit Discussion

 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:03 pm 
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Looks good Jimmy. My only minor quibble is a question whether FF 3+ is a tad too good; is it really as good as a terminator?

Could we start at FF 4+ and improve it if needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:51 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Looks good Jimmy. My only minor quibble is a question whether FF 3+ is a tad too good; is it really as good as a terminator?


Is a unit armed with two hurricane bolters and a twin-linked assault cannon as good in a firefight as a unit of terminators with storm bolters and an assault cannon? Um... yep, pretty much exactly as good, I'd expect.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Yeah ^that^ pretty much sums that up. Having the traditional EA +1 in an ok FF value would reflect the actual unit better, having a fast ATSKNF skimmer (even with the removal of RA) full of Devestators/Termies makes it a crazy good unit, too good IMHO so I subsumed all that into a single good FF.

At this price they're approaching Land Raider costs and due to their now fragile nature and on table deployment (no way we're seeing many T1 assaults now) they can't be nerfed unto oblivion. Lets try it here and see. I've very cognizant of having 4 DC units and a dread "guided missiled" into the opponent but in the other hand, that's somewhat the BA methodology so ... Yeah... Gk are their own beast so this is probably the best trial to start with. If we see nutty results I'll be the first to be all over that one with a new approach :)

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Should they be able to pick up troops as well as Dreadnoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Yes. I believe that is what I wrote (omitting list specific units under the "use common sense" theorem :D )

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:58 pm 
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Good to see them as pure transports and without planetfall. You wrote 125 for two, if I would like to transport tacticals I would need three. How much are three?

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:14 pm 
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'bout 200. depends on the list in question the final tally

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:28 am 
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Storm Raven 35cm
AV A: 4+, C: 6+, FF: 3+
Missiles AT5+ 45cm
Twin Assault Cannon AP4+/AT5+ 30cm
Twin Heavy Bolter
Transport 2 tac/dev and 1 dread (termies take up two spots), skimmer, TRA, planetfall

I'd recommend something like above.

I think the Hurricane bolters fit nicely into the boosted FF stats, but don't remove a heavy weapons system present on so many other models. Hurricanes are essentially small arms, but TL HB has plenty of precedence on existing SM vehicles.

I think changes to Missiles are fine.

I didn't have an issue with 5+RA (based more on experience with Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor testing in the 30k). The other factor to consider here is speed and maneuverability. Epic has a precedence of providing fast units a better save on account of they're ability to avoid incoming fire. I'd argue this vehicle is as close to a AC as you can get without ceasing to be a skimmer. When you consider a flyer is able to avoid all non AA weapons on the board, 5+RA is a way to abstract its "almost flyer" qualities in avoiding ground fire. Go with 4+ if you want but for a number of reasons, other than a direct port of 40K armour stats, 5+RA works.

Planetfall - if this doesn't justify planetfall what does? its almost a drop pod with bigger wings and the ability to take off again.

TRA - Ack its not a landraider but its not far off.

In summary, please don't keep toning stuff back and stripping weapons etc because things feel OTT in comparison to some other random model. Up the points if needed but let it be what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:50 pm 
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Just throwing this into the mix. To me the basis of a lot of the Storm Raven is the IG Vulture. Their hellfire missiles are better then the missiles on the Storm Raven and they again are only the equivalent of crack missiles in the 40k (Range 120cm and AT2+). I know Im comparing things from very different lists but carrying through the "one shot missile" theme the current AT3+ stats for the Storm Raven work. And fit with my (obviously very personal) image of them coming over the horizon in a barrage missiles taking out transports for the transported marines then getting out to assault.

On to the point being made about it not having a defined role. I like that about the Strom Raven. Its a jack of all trades but master of none. If you use it as an awesome assault unit then you dont get to take advantage of the twin assault cannon/heavy bolters. Also, in comparison to the other methods of transporting units like terminators (I know this is meant to be looking at it in isolation but I think looking at what is transported in them is important) they are pretty vulnerable to attack. An hit on them with the units inside can really ruin your plans. So their use to do "everything" can work but its a high risk choice. And that's what E:A is all about to me, you get a choice.

If I made changes on the unit I would lowers its FF to 5+ (to emphasise the jack of all trades but master of none). Id also try to show how it fits into the half way between a skimmer and a aircraft by the following:
-Any unit being transported counts has being his my a macro weapon when making saves as the "bail out" unless they have a jump pack (so they are in a worse situation then being in a ground transport vehicle but not as bad as if an aerial transport gets shot out from under them)
-Units do not gain cover from being in contact with a Storm Raven

Having said that I know that special rules for the sake of special rules are something people want to avoid, but these add a nice sense of "feel" to the unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:26 am 
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Rug wrote:
I'd say ff3+ is OTT. Terminators are ff3+ but a stand represents up to 5 individuals which can all engage different targets intelligently, make best use of cover and multiple angles/directions of fire and practice fire and manoeuvre. The ff value is not all about how many guns you have.

I can see the Storm Raven as a great gun platform but that doesn't necessarily translate to being good in a fire fight.

From a balance point of view ff3+ is difficult too.

As for Planetfall, just because it can it doesn't mean some of the very dogmatic marine chapters will use it this way. I think this ability can be added on a list by list basis depending on the list "flavour". For example, BA, Black Templars, Raven Guard....yes! Ultra Marines, White Scars, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels... maybe not. This is a great opportunity to add flavour and distinctiveness to each list and makes it way easier to balance.


I agree about the FF.

About planetfall, I'm not sure having it different between lists makes it easier to balance. Surely it makes it harder? As in, you lose the ability to balance them through stats. If you fix the stats without planetfall and then add planetfall later, it might be impossible to make it balance. Certainly I felt letting them planetfall was very powerful and changed the unit significantly, and I'm not sure just making it more expensive would be a satisfactory result. Personally I'd just remove planetfall and be done with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:08 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Personally I'd just remove planetfall and be done with it.


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:49 pm 
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Yeah, planetfall from what I gather is meant to be the realm of the Thunderhawks diving from space whereas Storm Ravens are more like skimmers.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:08 pm 
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Fluff-wise? no. They planetfall it's absolutely clear about that. That's also the reaosn the BA army in 40k for 3 editions has almost universal deep strike ability. Not that I want to be using that abortion of a game as a basis for too much but we should be at least truthful to the adaptation somewhat.

EA Game-wise? That's really a list level discussion, and actually off-topic from what I want us to tackle, sorry. I do want to note that Rug is spot on that tactical doctrine dictates the stats as much as the weapons / unit itself and absolutely why we use [LIST/UNIT NAME] variants. As an example, let me proffer forth from 'ye olden tymes' my suggestion about removing weapons from the THawk Transporter and replacing them with a good FF value to reflect less the unit (which is bristling with shooting weaponry by the way) to reflect their use as a combat lander in a hot LZ. That worked there to fix a troublesome unit, perhaps something similar could be found here, hence the excercise.[shrugs]

As to the jack-of-all-trades NCO, what tends to happen with those units is that they don't do anything well enough to make them work at any cost points typically. I'll just say one name that should fully illustrate what I mean by that: BANEBLADE. :D

I'm hearing you Kyrt on the FF and there's excellent arguments on that. To play devils advocate I'll also point out that taking a unit with 5 long range independent weapons systems and reducing it to one or two in EA also has to have some baring on the stats as well. Perhaps that just means a massively cheap skimmer transport and little shooting and ok FF. Perhaps that means instead that it needs to be split into two versions baed on doctrinal usage. Perhaps we need to ditch the damn thing entirely and it should be an AC. Perhaps there's no salvaging any of this and it just doesn't really work in the structure of EA well.

I suspect that a combination of points, list structure, and stats will all be required to make that a unit that doesn't just fall into a consistently binary game which is the huge issue with the SR Spam blood angels list from way back-it works with good rolls (for you) and you win or your rolls suck and it's a slow slide into a loss and boring for everyone involved. It was like the THawk air assault of doom list but dialed up to 11. I'll admit that the 4x Single Shot missiles were the culprit there and reducing them to a single weapon over the game is probably a fix, but perhaps not. Now in my personal opinion I expect they'll end up at FF4+ and be cheap vs FF3+ and expensive but we need to test to find out.

Which leads me to my point (do i have a point? let's make one ;D) Not to sound like an even bigger jerk than I am, but theory hammer time is done, folks. I've put forth stats to try and report back on the feels of the unit's purpose. Does it work? yes|no|icanhazcheezeburger? Let's go find out instead of rehashing the same endless debate. Prove me wrong! thanks! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:32 am 
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JZ, if theory hammer is done, what stats are we testing? stats as they are or ?

FF4+ or FF3+ is neither here not there for me but I wouldn't think less than 4+, go to 5+ and that's = to a razorback and clearly this thing has a few more guns than a razor back - heck it out shoots a predator destructor but hey..

Removal of single shot missiles would help IMO.

See comment above ref armour save and abstract justification for decent armour.

Planefall - needs to stay, this is not a SM version of the IG Valk, its a small thunderhawk.

Finally, I see noting wrong with jack of all trades units from time to time. A cunning player will use them to their strengths in different ways against different opponents and your baneblade example is a good one.


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