jeah...

MW Attacks for the Salvation Team? But not +1 EA MW.


If "the People like it" is the reason, why not put..hmm....some Stormhammers into the list? Or an Imperator Class Titan.. Maybe some Sisters of Battle.. i like the new Modells by OM. Weird, i always tought that i play a Space Marines list because i like Space Marines...

I think there a 2 good Reasons why almost always are Titans and Imperial Navy Aircraft in any SM List. 1. Because the gamer like the mobile MW and AT Firepower. 2. Because GW put them in. But they are not always necessary But its your Party. If you put them in because you like it...k.



But they have the acess, resources and patience to field an Dictator Cruiser (the smallest Aircraft Carrier i know) with them? Or they got some Thunderbolts and Marauders in their Battle Barge. With the human Pilots? The Stormtalon is not a new Wargear, the Smurf Marines used them in the Battle of Macragge, 1. Tyranic War and i think the Stormtalon is still older. The Stormtalon is made by GW that every Faction have their own Aircraft and it is good...why not in EA?



K, good Point

[quoteNaming the vessel is not a facet of Epic due to abstraction.[/quote]
Hrhrhr, we talk about a Scythe of the Emperor Armylist with Scythe of the Emperor spezific Formations. Do you call this abstract? Ok, for gameplay its not important if the Name of the Spacecraft is Heart of Cronus, Fortress-monastery or Sissy the pink Princess...


Yes, but a smalll rule would give the Armylist a better "Scythes of the Emperor" feeling..


I think it is a good Idea... Razorbacks are fast to produce, so why not take them as "Armoured Fist?" I think its worth to test it.


Why? i think it is a good Idea to make Upgrades cheaper than a whole new Formation. The Devestator- and Tac Formation lose their Garnison and Droppod/Thunderhawk ability and the points are lost for another Activation. i think that are the 50 worth. Lets test it...


jep, i like the idea..

Dobby, maybe if i would know your Intention behind this List, it would help me to give better advices.

Yeah I’d prefer no special rule as I feel that the effect of “we hate Tyranids” could easily come out in play among the players themselves rather than a hard ruling to change the list simply to combat one other list.
If a special rule were to be introduced it would need to be one that suited against all-comers.



Then technically First Strike FF wouldn’t affect OW as it would kick off before the assault happened, so Disrupt is more accurate, but I think FS FF is a more interesting idea. I also wonder what use 6+ Disrupt will actually be given its low hit rate to the point of being useless. It’s partly why I assigned 5+ Disrupt, the other part being to give a similar stat line to the other Land Speeders. I took a small liberty with it.



There’s not any hard and fast guideline on this but I tried to simulate the Chapter’s shortages to a degree. I can remove the 0-2 on Thunderhawks if this is how they escaped from Sotha. I won’t be tying them to an allies section.


The Chapter basically has 4 suits of Terminator armour at this point. Salvation teams basically scrounge and perform clandestine attacks in hive ships etc. Some are said to still be hidden aboard hive fleets ships.



I felt it wasn’t about speed rather that it just sits in geo-sync orbit to support the Scythes whenever the plan dictates. I want to trial an “any turn you require” Battle barge-esque Spacecraft in a list, and this list seemed a good way to start. I felt adjusting the weaponry to compensate for the any-turn ability was a bit fairer than just dropping 3-template 14BP barrage. I’ve thought about raising the price to 400 as well.



Actually, the painting opportunity inspired me as I’ve always loved the Chapter colours/iconography but the Wiki was my main source of information and helped guide me.



It’s a possibility. I would much prefer to give people both, however, as I can hear calls for “How do I kill titans and deal with air attacks?” Plus, I don’t think they need to be pigeon-holed so much as they are actually a Codex list to a degree so can fight in many different theatres with many different allies.

Forget my higher cost upgraded Predators suggestion, I checked Scions and they're 50 there.

Give Salvation Teams Melta Bombrs - make their CC attack MW but also drop their CC to 5+. Barran Sappers have Melta Bombs at CC5+ MW and these should match too. Melta Bombs are unwieldy and you give up all your attacks to place one, a marine using one would be about as effective as a guardsmen using one.

I meant overwatch in 40k terminology, which now refers to "shooting at people when they charge you in close combat" which fits in with First Strike, since it helps assure that the marines are fighting before the enemy.

And yes, having a 5+/6+ disrupt weapon on an APC transport in my Bloody Hand list, I can attest to the fact that it is pretty much useless XD

the Army Restrictions thing I was talking about is the "must contain the following Battle Company Detachments"
so I am required to spend the first 1075 points on 2 tacs 1 assault and 1 dev, but then I'm unable to buy any more such formations at all? cannot buy additional devastator formations etc?

should the predator formation get access to the predator upgrade? being able to group their armour into larger strike forces would help protect them more given the lack of land raiders

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Yeah maybe that would work....


I think we could put more sarcasm units into the list if you prefer....
I think you just need to realise the game is Epic, not Space Marine. People like to see large war engines on the table and the game is designed to cater for big stuff and small stuff. Sure not every list needs allies but I don’t really see an issue with this list. They fight against the same forces the rest of the Imperium fights with, they just particularly prefer to hunt Tyranids. Would you prefer to see the Scythes fight Bio-titans or Gargant Big-mobs with infantry alone...?
The simple answer? If anyone feels they’re not always necessary, then they don’t have to take them in their lists. The list one person makes doesn’t have to resemble the lists others make.


Again, it’s not like they will avoid the support of these allied forces. They’re an army of the Imperium... but if the majority want Stormtalons, I can include them instead.


Well we don’t call a Tactical formation “Squad Erebus” do we...?
Besides, Sissy the Pink Princess would be the Emperor’s Children Battle Barge


I don’t disagree entirely; I just don’t think that it’s worth the effort of testing a special rule when you’re trying to emulate martial vigour against a hated foe. In this particular instance I think that’s the player’s spectrum and part of the fun. Also, if you play 99% of games against non-Tyranid armies it becomes rather pointless rather quickly. A house rule for players would be a better option.


Basically my main intention (as with any list I write) is to make a list that’s fun for both sides of the table while trying to maintain the “feel” of that particular force and maybe do it with a bit of difference to other lists on occasion e.g The Battle Company and the Scout Company.
Any addition I put into a list isn’t there to uber-size it, it’s just go by feeling and try to balance things up. In general, if I put something powerful in I try to balance it with a weakness, and vice versa to a degree. For example, as there are no Terminators or Land Raiders in the list I thought perhaps increasing the Rhino-chassis armour count in the list with the Razorback formation and giving the Salvation teams Teleport (and perhaps now a MW EA+1 etc to give back the lost punch of the Termies) might be an interesting idea as it’s totally different to other lists. Sure the RB formation isn’t canon and the Salvation team is highly un-documented gear-wise, but that’s the beauty of creating a list – you can experiment. Anyway, hopefully enough people will trial the list to get it going.
Does this help you see my position?

Correct. They have a Battle Company and a Scout Company. As the points for the Tacs will change to 275 standard you will have to spend 975 points for the Battle Company. Almost everything else is buy at will except that the Scout Company formations are slightly less limited than Battle Company formations due to the higher numbers in the Chapter.


As Glyn mentioned they fight in small, fast moving groups so unless play shows they really need it they can stay as they are for now. Given they have smaller formations I will keep an eye on the number of activations that might possibly be available too. If it becomes a problem then I can look to increase sizes and costs as necessary.

But there's nothing particularly associating the Cerberus with overwatch or suggesting that it should shoot before the enemy (scout razorbacks in the codex list don't so why should this). I don't think first strike is a very good fit for it at all myself, whereas disrupt would fit very well based on the gun's background and the unit's 40k function. Disrupt also covers the vehicle's command and control disrupting jamming beacon, which first strike wouldn't.

I disagree with the idea that disrupt 6+ is useless, it's a small boost that occasionally helps. The Storm has advantages over in the APC you mention as it can garrison closer, more likely to be in range. It's also much more useful with higher strategy, initiative and in a high activation army (where you can safely double them next to something after the enemy has run out of activations and then sustained fire at the start of next turn). Scouts have short ranged AP guns too, and you can position them so that 15cm move infantry can charge only the skimming land speeders.
Being a transport it's role is different and it doesn't need to be equivalent in power to dedicated gun land speeders, it's not meant to be. Besides it costs considerably less – 25 points each compared to 40 points each for other land speeders. Give it AP5+ disrupt if you like, but I think it is good enough as is at 6+ disrupt.

New thought: Scythes would be likely to outfit with weapons that were good against the tyranids. Missile Launchers are a good anti-tyranid weapon so the infantry are fine as are, but anti-tyranid weapon options on vehicles would make sense. Heavy Flamers sounds the best option against tyranid hordes to me. How about the Scythes Razorbacks having twin-linked Heavy Flamers instead of Heavy Bolters? (as well as the lascanon option). Twin-linked Heavy Flamers is a standard codex option that any chapter can use.


Fair enough, I quite like their colour scheme too. Incidentally the SotE's homeworld Sotha features quite a bit in Dan Abnett's Horus Heresy novel Unremembered Empire. It's an agricultural paradise (and they've taken the scythe as a symbol), with weird ancient alien ruins and technology. They manage to use some of the alien tech for communications and as a navigational beacon in Ultramar (since the astronomicon is largely blocked by a huge warp-storm the chaos side have summoned). Unfortunately in doing so they may have attracted the far-away hivefleets to the galaxy and their eastern area of it.

Sorry if anyone noticed - I accidentally managed to edit Dobbsy's post, replacing it with my own, instead of quoting it and posting this. Luckily the back button recovered the original and I think it's all now as it was. Must be more careful with moderator privileges...

The Cerebus launcher is a Str2 AP- weapon. it causes basically no casualties, nor any long term effects, what it does do, is cause the effect Blind. Blind temporarily reduces models Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill to 1. Limiting their ability to respond to the assault that is happening in the next phase.
It doesnt kill much, what it does, is gives the scouts an edge in the first round of combat, to allow them to deal a crippling blow while minimising the enemies ability to fight back. that's not disrupt, that's first strike.
In the previous edition, it provided a leadership penalty, thats more like disrupt than the current version, but it still did it during an assault, and in order for the marine player to capitalise on their first round advantage. their "First Strike" if you will.

It's a flashbang. A flashbang does not cause long term confusion or disarray, it causes short term incapacitation in order for troops that are breaching to surprise the enemy and attack before they can recover.
First strike, not disrupt.

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TBH Disrupt replicates command break down due to suppression and the like, so in this aspect both options actually do similar things just in different segments of the turn.

I think I will actually go with AP5+ Disrupt for now. I think the AP part is important as "flashbangs" don't really affect tanks so a First Strike effect will seem slightly odd if you're attacking armoured targets with a FS ability based on an anti-personnel weapon system. If it shows it doesn't really work we can adjust it.

Tyranids love devouring Space Marines, shouldn't Tyranids have a special rule to represent the Hive Mind's enjoyment of feeling crushing talons punch through powered armour into that juicy squishy bio-mass? The list of grudge-filled matchups is not endless, but certainly long. Squats vs Orks. CSM vs SM etc etc.

Are the Scythes' willingness to fight Tyranids best thought of as a special advantage or that they accept requests for help against Tyranids more willingly? A much better way to go would be, as GlynG suggests, to give them toys that hurt Tyranids, like Ignore Cover, that could be helpful against more opponents and could be costed appropriately.

Giving them a special rule against Tyranids would go unnoticed in 95% of the games, and when it mattered, it would be unfair. If the rule would be of little consequence in order to not be unfaired, it is completely unnecessary. I could see a house rule where Tyranids got a boost to spawning to compensate for some sort of anti-Tyranid effect. This would represent the Scythe's deploying at the centre of action.

/Fredmans

Have updated the list in the OP to include a few points of discussion.

Changes that are noteworthy:

Added Stormtalons and removed the Air Allies.

Gave the Salvation Teams Melta bombs and reduced their armour but left them with 4+ CC the same as Marine Scouts - I figure their superhuman strength should be enough to be able to use the meltabombs better than a Guardsman. Pricing went up. Would like more discussion on this.

Returned the Tacticals to normal Tacticals and priced accordingly

I don't have much to add to this list other than i think its a good idea to have both titans and air support in it. And also i agree with that a anti-Tyranid rule should be avoided at all costs. Epic is a abstract game and should be kept like that. The force organization with restrictions and the Salvation teams are different enough from the codex lists. I don't understand why people always want a 1000 different rules and units in the new lists. I think it's better to play around with what units that already exists.

Te list looks good Dobbsy!

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Interesting take on the Stormtalon load outs. IIRC something thrown out there in passing in the development thread ages ago. I'll try and dig out Death From The Skies book later and see if they've got a name for the two styles of weapon packs mentioned. Failing that, perhaps naming wise we should call them Air Support and Ground Attack since they're always referred to as Gunship in either case? A rose by any other name situation most assuredly and I'm glad to see additional use of them.

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Two versions of the Stormtalon in one list? Seems confusing and a bad idea to me. The visual difference between the two is negligible on a 40k scale, just a different end poking out of an otherwise identical gun pod:


The difference between the fighter and the fighter bomber would be hard to notice for people to notice and not very WYSIWYG. Fighter Stormtalon only please.

Just ditch the need for a bomber? People rarely take bombers in any case and if the Scythes list is slightly limited in this aspect, put it down to their limited supplies.

Or give them a SM aircraft bomber? e.g. the Thunderhawk Bomber would be the best candidate and if they have Thunderhawks it's simple for them to equip them with bombs if they don't have the IN around. Or the Storm Eagle could be a good candidate for a bomber as it's basically a heavily armed half-Thunderhawk with a 2BP missile launcher on top.


I'm still not keen on changing the role of the RB from that in all other chapters. I agree that Scythes would rely on RBs more than other chapter's due to their limited options, but I think having the better HF RB in the list would encourage more to be used as transports and more would be seen that way anyway.

If you're having a twin-linked Heavy Flamer on a RB then it's FF should be Ignore Cover too. I'm surprised you left the twin-HB one in as well, I would have though the HF would do that better, while the twin-Las one would be useful as well for shooting the big ones and tackling the many tyranid AVs.

Yesss...a Supreme sarcasm Comander would be nice...

i think thats right....

Erebus??? HERESY! Ähmm...nope, but the Scythes are with their Background (just 2 Companies an 1 Ship) very unique.

I think Sissy is for everyone...

Ok...no Anti-Tyranid rules...

I like the new List but...still no Dev.-Stats in the List.