I don't think any of us are suggesting a straight conversion of these to epic at all. They can possibly inform the thinking a bit and are not irrelevant, because the various speeds and weights can be compared relatively to each other to see how the Vindicator compares to the speed 25 Land Raider and the speed 30 vehicles.

The numbers could be used to argue the case either way really and like I said what works for the game is the most important.

They are just one of those units that won't make many peoples general marine list. That isn't a real problem for me.

It's not irrelevant. It's a basis for comparison. While you may not be able to do a straight conversion, Epic is supposed to mirror the proportional abilities of the units to retain the flavor of the units. That flavor includes 40K stats, tech specs like IA gives and the background fiction descriptions.

40K speed is very hard to use for Epic because it's so binary, but it can be good for things like whether turbo-boosts are available and such. Tech specs say the Vindicator is about the same speed as most LR versions. The background fiction says they are heavier and slower than other Rhino chassis vehicles, even if the tech specs don't really support that fully. The LRs are slower than the Rhino chassis vehicles.

Overall, my impression is that 25cm speed is where Vindis should be, in line with Land Raiders, to adhere as closely as possible to the flavor and proportional abilities of the vehicle.

30cm could be justified. If it's normally only slightly slower than a Rhino and has a siege shield, it'll likely end up being quicker overall because it can be less cautious.

However, I think a point decrease is a better idea.

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Vindis have good stats for a double/fire/support combo. 65cm to support range, decent to-hit and ignore cover so the double move doesn't completely cripple their shooting, and decent FF for support fire. When I was testing Preds + Vindis + Hunter for a Marine armor pseudo-company, I was always satisfied with the Vindicators' performance. I've used them in LR + Vindi formations, but that gets expensive. I've also used them with Assault Marines as attached support and it goes a long way towards making them more multi-role, placing BMs and boosting FF, similar to Ork Storm Boyz with Deth Koptas. I have absolutely no problem with them as 50 points per upgrade.

That said, I tend not to take Vindi formations because they are limited in size. 4 short range armor units with 4+ save is a bit fragile. For the role I expect them to play, Speeders are almost as good and have other advantages.

I could go for 225 points. I would also consider allowing the "Vindicator" upgrade for the formation, so you could take up to 6 of them.

I really shouldn't beat this dead horse... and my apologies. I'd just note that this horse has been dead since Hal Hock (Tobruk) and John Hill (Squad Leader) started flogging it in 1978.

That said, I do very much enjoy the debate between 'design by data' and 'design for effect.' In general, I'd argue, the former is particularly problematic. Most of our real data about war -- especially these kinds of technical measures -- is largely garbage because we struggle to measure friction. The effect extends, I'd venture, to our pretend data about science fiction war.



Absolutely, I defer to your impression: if you feel that the SM's armory should reflect a tendency for LRs and Vindicators to operate separately from faster moving Rhinos and Razorback, that's a fair point -- I haven't seen much of the fluff describing SM combined arms operations.

I don't mean to be too argumentative about the data -- especially because I think there's a fairly large 'error term' -- but to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "these technical specifications, you keep using them, I do not think they mean what you think they mean."

Specifically, the sharpest distinction between Rhino, Raider, and Vindicator is the specification for road speed. Yet how many roads actually show up on an epic battlefield?

The off-road speed is more relevant, and here a 3-5% difference in book speed gets blown up into a 20% difference in game speed. This is not a logarithmic conversion, rather the reverse -- indeed, it's a particular problem when speed differences are magnified at the same time ground scale is compressed.

That's all minutia if you've accept the 'design for effect' route. But here the Vindicator's particular effect -- it's specific stats as they stand -- makes much sense in the context of the very general fluff for SMs: their strengths are tactically competence, maneuverability, and survivability, while their main weakness is numbers.... oh... ok and also a hidebound affection for Rhinos and their derivatives. All but this latter seems to be in tension with the game effect that Vindicators and Landraiders pose a tactical liability in terms of speed and maneuverability. And, I'd venture, this particular liability might be one reason they don't fit many competitive lists.

(Nb... the first thing any self-respecting SM should do is trade their epic-statted vindicators for Hellhounds -- they both occupy the same slot in their respective TO&Es, but the Hellhound is basically a better fit for Marine doctrine.)

ah, but vindicators are light enough and structurally designed to be airdropped, and chimera based tanks generally aren't.

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Actually a Chimera weighs 38 tonnes and and a Hellhound weighs 35 tonnes, so both are than the 44 tonne Vindicator.

It's more that the Guard don't have the advanced flight capabilities to drop in like a Thunderhawk Transporter or Landing Craft. They also mostly fight in much larger numbers - from what we've seen in the art the Guard transports are vast, carrying large quantities at once.

FWIW, I think it'd be kind of fun to kick around Vindicators and Land Raiders re-statted with a 30cm move. I know people have grumbled for a long while about the weakness of 'mud-marines' and (particularly) the scarcity of Land Raiders -- it might well be that they'd be more useful if more maneuverable. In general, the Marine list does a good job of reflecting their character as a 'strike fast, strike hard' force (as does the Marine list with Warhounds attached, btw). The slower-statted Vindicators and LRs fit poorly with that general character, though.



GlynG beat me to the punch...

Well played. But at 44 tons, the Vindicator is ~50% heavier than a Rhino. If they repurpose a Rhino chassis to be droppable with 50% greater weight, they can repurpose a Chimerhound...

Right... "repurposing" is sacrilege.... ok. (For a tactically adept force, SMurfs are awfully hard-headed).


Now... unless I'm missing something, by 'airdropped' you mean 'air-landed' (via landing craft)... and the Land Raider (2.5 times as heavy as the Rhino) also gets 'air-landed.'



Which means a few Hellhounds wouldn't be missed were they to be liberated by enterprising SMurfs....

But NO... that is not Fluffy... SMurfs wouldn't think of scrounging under-used equipment. Let alone letting their bright blue armor get dirty.

Novel idea: Give the Vindicator Sniper in the Notes section. This way the Leman Russ Demolisher doesn't get touched as the Sniper ability is directly related to the Vindicator's chassis and superior crew and not to the gun alone.

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Sniper on an AT-capable unit would certainly make it stand out.

And it fits. Thje Vindicator is a bunker-nuster. It is designed to puilverize fortifications and take out heavily armoured vehilces...like Titans. Not only through heavy firepower but also by firing at vulnerable spots.

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Sniper'd certainly be novel.

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They don't need it! They already have the Land Raider Redeemer flame tank (which may be slightly shorter ranged than a Hellhound, but covers twice the area with much nastier flame with AP of 3 rather than 4 i.e. able to ignore marine power armour). The Hellhound is a nice tank, but it's quite liable to spectacularly blow up under fire, which would be better with guard crew than risking marines in it.

Razorbacks can be armed with a Heavy Flamer as can all flavours of Land Speeder - the 'Tornado' sort can be armed with two Heavy Flamers if desired. It's not like the SM are short of flamer weapons and those are all more SM-like than them nicking Imperial Guard tanks. Plus teleporting Terminators, Siege Dreadnoughts with Flamestorm Cannons, ect. There's also this Predator flame variant too, but sadly the Blood Angels (and their successor chapters) keep the plans to themselves and won't share it with the Adeptus Mechanicus so other chapters can have them.

Not that they'd have to share with the Ad. Mech in order for other chapters to have it, mind you.

Stupid Blood Angels.

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