@arkturas: A 0-3 choice? With the same reasoning Codex Terminators are a 0-5 coice in the rulebook Space Marine list? Oh they aren't restircted there....

Other idea could be that the formation is still 4 Terminators but can be upgraded to 6 Terminators.

BTW: The Deathwing and Ravenwing are THE defining feature of the Dark Angels. All the Plasma thingies are only a nod towards the 3rd edition Wh40k Codex where DarkAngels where the only Chapter which could have Plasma Cannons for Tactical Squads (and Dreadnoughts iirc).

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The core rulebook list is technically a joint SM list containing many chapters (those that fought on Armageddon) which is why there is no restriction on Terminators. There is a case that in single chapter lists there could be limits as we have a good idea of the maximum numbers for each formation. However I'm not actually suggesting its a good idea as it would get a bit messy and the limits would be quite severe for some formations (chapters don't appear to have that many tanks for instance). Personally if I reach any of the clear background limits such as on terminators I would then switch to a descendent chapter paint scheme.

The key formations are DW and RW.
Secondary units are Mortis dreads.
Tertiary units I think would be the Ironwing and variant Landraiders (Ares as a supposed DA design and Prometheus as a nod towards the more strategic nature of the DA assuming some decent rules to represent it).
Absolutely no DA riding lions.

Personally on the current list I'd try to get rid of the slow-firing plasma cannons (via an alternative mk). The RW formations I still think need work but I don't know what.

Awwwww


I too would like to switch the 30cm AP4+/AT4+ slow-firing Plasma Canons for 30cm AP4+/AT6+ Plasma Cannons but there is only one type of Plasma Cannon in the Wh40k universe so we have to stick with the former unless the NetERC decides otherwise.

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The problems with this are at least twofold (in case I think of more whilst writing).
1) The cost. Such a formation will clock in at around 550 (350 +50%+the bonus for ATSKNF).
2) The teleport. Yes, odds on you will always have at least 1 blastmarker. That is actually in many ways a worse formation, but because its chance based you can't easily give it a discount.
3) They are a lovely fit for landing craft now. But not with transports

Indeed overall the increased cost with the bigger formation would be a negative for the list not a positive.

Overall you can have an always fearless terminator stand with a character and if you fail to activate the formation is fearless for the whole turn. Thats two differences over regular terminators and makes for an overall different feel to the formation, fitting their dying to the last man fighting genestealers image.



The reason for that is simple. All MM in a formation is awful. All the balancing options - FF5+MW (worse overall FF over most opponents, useless bloody shooting), FF4+MW (now great air assault FF, still crap shooting unless one is performing a shooting ground attack) - fall foul of the air assault ability. Since the Salamanders are not renowned for daring air assaults, popping up all over a planet in thunderhawks and instead the more measured approach which we thought fitted with the gap in the space marine options for a mechanised list - this limited things somewhat. So the MM being such an odd weapon does confuse things somewhat. In the EpicUK variant that I really must send back after receiving comments on their is only MM tacs for simplicity, but its still not an all tac formation as it doesn't work in that style of list.

All plasma in the devs is also pretty bad, its a licence for ground attack shooting missions leaving you in an excellent turn 2 assault position, or a more conventional but still prtty damn good double shoot. Both options lead to an increased cost and with no warhounds and thunderbolts the DA struggle with activations anyway and don't need this dissadvantage. All plasma in tacs mitigates this somewhat.

The choice is fairly odd anyway. Epic formations are best min-maxed so here why would you have a mixed formation, other than all plasma bar one missile launcher for bms (when everyone else was holding fire or re-loading) and range strecking purposes? Unless their is a points cost in which case you just do the straight effectiveness math. Not much 'feel' there as a result.

It also makes keeping track of what's what quite tricky



True. however what has more 'style/flavour' - the assault all the stuff formation or the garrison one that is clearly doing the whole searching for the fallen bit (which is the reason why the list lacks allies etc). Plus the former is a reinforced normal bike formation with better shooting abilities. Also have to consider cost control.



I'm not sure who thought it up, I liked it as it matched the pack thats on sale! However I beleive BL pointed out that was the max upgraded 40k formation or some such? Its also a different formation. Simply having a fast firebase formation just didn't seem very dramatic. Something which swoops up the the fallen, summons the terminators and then gives nifty fire support seemed a lot more exciting.

Ok so next version will remove Fearless from Deathwing Terminators. But i suppose a points DEcrease because of lack of their second shooting attack.

And yes the Ravenwing Attack Squadron matches a fully outkitted Wh40k Ravenwing Attack Squadron.

And yes the Ravenwing Support Squadron matches a fully outkitted Wh40k Ravenwing Support Squadron AND also matches the Epic blister pack. There you have 1-3 Ravenwing Land Speeders and can ADD one Ravenwing Land Speeder Tornado and can also ADD one Ravenwing Land Speeder Typhoon.
An interesting change might be to mirror the Epic Ravenwing Attack Squadron which represents two Wh40k squadrons so thatthe Ravenwing Support Squadron would consist of 6 Ravenwing Land Speeders, 2 Ravenwing Land Speeder Tornados and 2 Ravenwing Land Speeder Typhoon.
But thats a 10 unit formation with Speed 35cm, Skimmer and Scout...

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I always though that Dark Angels would be real easy to make. Bigger Termy formation to represent the fact that they have more, duel autocannon Dreads for Mortis, plasma tacs, Ravenwing (six bikes, an attack bike and one land speeder variation). Isn't that the long and short of what makes their army unique? Maybe add that crazy LR variant, with the Demolisher Cannon, TL heavy flamers, TL Assault cannon and no transport capacity?

I don't think thats a reason for any more than a minimal points drop. Shooting is a rarely used terminator use - in the same vein artillery units wouldn't need points changes in you tweeked their CC slightly.

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Its not quite the same - its still an important part. I'd say a unit coming in turn 1 on the flank could expect to double and fire turn 2. Also some formations such as skimmers you are better off firing in a crossfire. Then again the turn 3/4 teleport and assault/objective grab is unaffected by this.
At most you could drop them to 325 to account for the reduced utility.

For now though i would make them bog standard terminators with the chance for fearless character to be added. So same number of shots and whatnot.


And probably at least 450-500 points. Really the list without allies doesn't need the chance to lose more activation count!


But that is actually a big handicap. The formation size is a good balance for the job it does. Bigger just means you only ever landing craft it in or teleport onto seriously big warengines - which only the Orks have much chance of bringing.

Could the Ravenwing bike formation be reduced to 6 stands of bikes with the option to add 2 attack bikes and 2 tornadoes assuming you could get the points balance right so people take the upgrades.
Also on the terminators. The normal terminators have 2x Assault Cannon, the Deathwing currently have 1x Assault Cannon. Has anyone considered a weapon swap to the Cyclone as differentiation option (as it would have to be the SM 40k 2 shot missile launcher 45cm AP4+/AT5+?).

@Ravenwing: Would work if you would base Bikes two to the base (6 Bikes = 1 Ravenwing Bike Squadron). Well...i prefer to base my Bikes three to the base which imho looks a lot nicer.

@Terminators: Would be 45cm AP3+/AT5+ as the Cyclone ML is identical to the Typhoon ML. Nevertheless it would be an improvement above the Assault Cannons 30cm AP5+/AT5+.

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Well you could replace them with the 45/5+/6+ gun - but I'd argue losing 2 for that is a slight boost. And assaultcannon seems more iconic.

The bikes - the point is to get a scouting formation, not boost them into an unit of uber bikers. Ravenwing - out hunting the fallen and all that? Self suffiecent formation that can go anywhere, do anything and bring it home etc.

What TRC said.
If different weapons for Deathwing Terminators i would go with 1 x Assault Cannon and 1 x Heavy Flamer per unit as those two where the weapons depicted most in the Codexes and available for the models (with Deathwing typical feathers and stuff).

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Who shoots with terminators?

Me on average once every 3 turns I reckon. A better question is - who lets terminators constantly attack them after they teleport in

AC and Hve F - actually a better combination. You get the FF boost, the same range to mess things up and better turn 2 prep fire on stuff like mech formations.