AFAIK they have one Venerable Dreadnought who might qualify as a Supreme Commander, but they have more Venerable Dreadnoughts who don't qualify for that status.

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Oops. You're right of course!

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Sounds like a non-supreme Venerable Dreadnought with a supreme commander character added to it to me

Thanks for the replies gents.

OK first off most of the things in the list were tentative so definitely can change.

Onto the specific issues...

Iron priest - I generally included it for character and because I wanted to the focus of the list to be its Heroes, so the extra Iron Priest gives more flavour. But I'll remove it as so many are against it.

Thunderwolf - I'll do the suggested and just have it as a Fenris Wolf pack leader with character stats combined. I had actually considered this format but wanted to see where the current one wouldsit in people's views first.

Long Fangs - The stats/weapons were carried over from the 1.6 list I had so consider them just a beginning. As to the AT4+ las cannon stat, from reading the codecies I have read the fangs were supposedly very accurate and able to "pick off" enemy targets with greater skill than normal. I figured that would transfer to the higher stat. I was lead to believe that the Fangs were supposedly the mainstay of the AT for the SWs - relying more on the infantry shooting than their armour. I'm happy to go with the 2x Twin Missile launcher though if people prefer that specific loadout, or would people prefer to keep the lascannon shots with the correct stats and MLs? There should be a transport in there for them too - that was a typo. I decided against an upgrade to Grey Hunters. Long Fangs are veterans and for C&C purposes I wanted to reflect the fact that they really don't need heroes to lead them. Instead of a special rule I added a line to the data sheet. How do people feel about a 5+ lascannon shot and 2x twin missile launchers as weponry?

Wolf Guard - I'm fine with FF4+/CC2+ if people are. As I mentioned everything is adjustable so I'm happy if everyone else is. I omitted the Drop pods by mistake. They'll be available and listed on the data sheet. As to the cyclone launcher that's what they can use in the new codex and hello_dave had also chosen to give them the cyclone, so I agreed with him and kept them. He originally had 2x cyclones per unit but worried that would be too hard, so I toned it down to begin with.

continuing on....

Bloodclaws - they are almost Assault marines but their FF stat is reduced and their initiative is also.

Wolf Scouts - The weapons were mostly tentative. I had considered removing the "all sniper" to become a purchased upgrade etc but wanted to see how the rolled over stats (from 1.6) would be received. The other option I considered was removing the plasma guns. What weapon stats do you propose?

Fenrisian Wolves - ATSKNF goes to the whole formation right? So they would benefit from it. I can reduce their save if that would prehaps reduce the "big ugly formation" problem - easier to kill them etc. I can also just make the character upgrade a stat line as you propose too, but it looks less fluffy on the table IMO. What is consensus? On their stats I wanted them to be sort of like Flesh hounds but minus the inv save so replaced that with EA +1. I'm not married to that if people prefer something else. I'm trying to envisage how a data sheet would look and how would I add the stat to the character, being an upgrade.

Crusader - When I get all my minis for the army (and some time to play!) Hena I'll trial the MW MM and will put in a note in the playtest doc for others to try it also, but for now I won't write it in directly. I will give it a 4+ FF however as Zombo requests/proposes.

Venerable dreadnought - It's there because I like that it's something different and adds more character to the list. The one example you mention E&C I think is enough to warrant at least trialling it and there's a mention of dreads leading forces on Lexicanum, plus people can model Bjorn Fell-handed to add even more character. When I debated on adding the Ven Dread, I figured that a specific SC Dread gave the idea more presence and people might like the idea and also let me adjust a basic dread stats a little for a special purpose. I also had thought about removing the Inv save, but again wanted feedback on people's thoughts first.

I'd prefer they have all 4 shots (In whatever form) but are limited in number of units by being an upgrade.

That also grants the other formations (That lack ranged weapons) some infantry shooting.


Two things:

- There is only one Venerable Dreadnought in the Space Wolves who could qualify for SC status (Bjorn), the others cannot.

- By taking the name "Venerable Dreadnought" you are imposing your Venerable Dreadnought status on other lists.


What is wrong with a Venerable Dreadnought being a normal Dreadnought with a character added?

Add a Commander, and your Venerable Dreadnought can lead armies.
Add a Supreme Commander, and it's a super-rare revered Dreadnought (Clearly Bjorn!).
Add a Librarian... etc.

I don't see the need.

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Is there any reason why? Can I ask what rank/level etc a Supreme Commander is supposed to be? There isn't a specific one is there? My point is the term "commander" could actually be just about any rank/level character so it's not much of a stretch to see a Ven Dread be an army commander if the fluff for a particular chapter mentions it.


If it's the name you're worried about, would you prefer I change the name to Revered or Ancient Dreadnought so the Ven Dread can be used in other lists?

If it's a special unit it should be different IMO. It's also a Hero in this list. Otherwise it's just a Commander shoved into a standard Dreadnought and that's not much fun in terms of q sense of wonder/fluff.

IMO, if we always stamp things out that aren't the norm or force them into cookie-cutter designs you get a pretty plain game. Can we not give people who like fluff and something a little bit different something to enjoy? In terms of non-standard marines, the Space Wolves are the poster boys really. Surely they could do it a little different - even in this one small way?


If it's not a Hero of the Sagas then nothing at all - but that's what I'm trying to represent in the SC Dreadnought . As I said, what if I change the name? Otherwise, how about aesthetics? See my above regarding a plain game.


Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree then, as I know trying to change your mind is an impossible task when you have your mind set.

Look, if the tide of opinion is against it, then sure, I'll change it. It doesn't have to stay forever. However, until then, I'd like to give Space Wolves players (including myself) who might be keen to do so a chance to try it out.

I don't think that there is much difference between your Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought and a generic Dreadnought with a Captain, Chaplain, Librarian or Supreme Commander added.
Actually it's only the 4+ Reinforced Armour.

How about an Upgrade for a Dreadnought:
Venerable: Changes the Armour to 4+ RA also you have to put a Character to the unit.

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Chapter Master. Maybe a really great Company Commander in a pinch (but mostly those would just be Commanders).


A - That's ridiculous and patently not true.
B - Don't go Ad-Hominem, that's beneath you.

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Seriously, sorry Ben, my apologies, but it's not an attack, just my observations of the past.

I need not defend my record on being open to reasonable persuasion with specific examples, as it has happened on this very forum many times in the past; Your "observations of the past" are partial, and incorrect.

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Fair enough. My mistake.

Righto, and now I'm looking forwards to V2.01 :-)

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typing changes as I type... here ... Doh!