Vindicators are a bit of problem, I tend not to use the tank formation, simply because it isn't effective enough.  I think making it a six strong unit I would take it at a drop of a hat.   I dont think it needs any more than that.

cheers

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In the current Codex Space Marines the Vindicator now gets a Siege Shield which enables him to ignore the effects of Difficult terrain.

As for speed Imperial Armour lists the Vindicator as max speed on-road: 64kmph and off-road at 48kmph the Predator (evaery variant) and Whirlwind has 68/50kmph the Rhino and Razorback 70/55kmph, Land Raiders (and Helios and Prometheus) at 55/48kmph and the Land Raider Crusader at 50/41kmph.

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At 50pts it's nice to bulk out a Predator formation from 4 to 6.
Or just to add to a ground-based Tactical/Devastator for a bit more punch.

But that generally is only when your playing big games (4000pts+) and can afford to put in some 'less effective' units for novelty and variety.

In truth nearly all ground vehicles in a Marine army are a bit pants- it's an Air Assault list.

I don't know, perhaps to tie in with the lack of Tacticals- make it a freebie- you get 1 Dread or Vindicator with each Tactical- 300pts.

Alternatively I like the sound of Walker, but what about 15cm move (or both). Then it can Garrison with the Dev's, or even in it's own formation- I wouldn't mind a formation sat on Overwatch forward. It's generally a Siege tank- hence why it was slow compared to other Rhino chassis. The enemy is meant to be in a fixed position such as Bunkers, Trenches or just fortified ruins. The Marines pin them in place, then the Vindicators rumble into position to bring the defences down on top of them.

Unfortunately/Fortunately, Epic is more often about mobile warfare than hitting entrenched enemy lines- so the Vindicator can't keep up speed-wise, and it's short-range hinders it when it catches up.

Make 'em 275pts per formation.

/OT

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It's not the pts IMO.
For 25pts less I'd still take the Devastators, because they are better at Firefights, and pack more firepower.

The Tacticals needs something more, a novelty or inclusive like a Vindicator or Dread.

Pts drops alone won't make people interested IMO

I agree.

A points drop, plus a speed boost to 25cm, plus the Walker ability, however, and they would just about be worth 50pts. Just.

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I was talking about your Tactical pts drop- but I guess it could be applied to Vindicators too.

Perhaps there comes a point in every army list design where you have so many unit types that additional ones are attempted to fill the same role, just not as well.

I found the same with Tyranids, there where 2-3 close combat Armoured Vehicles trying to fight for the same role with slightly different stats.

The Tactical is competing with Dev's and Assault in their roles, but is worse than each in their respective areas of expertise.

The Vindicator? Competing with the Predator Destructor, which is itself a poor cousin of the Annihilator. Give it Walker and it's competing with Dread for foot patrol formations?
Up it's speed and it's still no competition for the firepower of the Predators.
The final resort is to find it another niche/role, but is there one left that doesn't already have a unit?
They are very situational (in background too), I can see taking Vindicators where your attacking a purely defensive enemy in a mission (so they'd be sat in 3/4+ Cover and rarely move) would be great. They can't outpace you, and won't benefit from cover.

I'm basing my observations on the Epic UK Vindicator (which is the one I use) for ref- 25cm speed, 50pts. 250pts for a formation of 4. Can add 2 to Tacticals, Predators, Devs.

The demolisher cannon should really be MW, but the carry-over to the IG list is too much trouble to be worth it.

50 points and walker or 25cm move is my vote.

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Based on playtesting here, which was 275 points for 4 with 30cm MW4+ IC, 25cm move (Handbook 2008), I think they still came to be seen as a subpar choice compared with other marine options... after some initial vindicator heavy list excitement (eg 3 formations) They do at least make an occasional appearance though. Predator Destructors are the other tank that still sucks.

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We rarely if ever see Vindicators in our games as well. The only time they were taken was when we were learning the rules and chose to mix it up a bit.

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What are the full stats you're wanting floated, Hena?

The problem with Vindicators seems to be the information is so scattered.

Are the two options
Vindicators, 4 for 300pts, 75pts upgrades.
Speed 25cm, AV4+ CC6+ FF4+
Demolisher 30cm AP3+/AT4+ IgCover
Walker

Vindicators, 4 for 300pts, 75pts upgrades.
Speed 25cm, AV4+ CC6+ FF3+
Demolisher 30cm AP3+/AT4+ IgCover

Or is there a cost decrease in there also? It seems everyone is throwing out ideas, and it's just become one large mess.

Morgan Vening

I may be going mad but wasn't that done (the 25cm and walker change) when the tourney mods were being discussed. Oh and thick rear armour. Those were the three mods that were compared to the MW mod. They were fine, made them a better land raider support option, bit of interest in supporting assault marines, but still didn't dislodge the annihilator.
I'm looking forward to trying them as 6 strong/5 strong 1 hunter formations, possibly then on par with tacticals as a choice.

Edit - Oh and I would simply assume we are using the EpicUK 250 for 4 as a base as I think thats right.

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Name it Vindicator Demolisher Cannon.

Some people probably have old models with Thunderers anyway.

No please, not a formation specific special case.
MW for the Demolisher, as such, seem as a no-brainer to me anyhow.  

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