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No Dreadnoughts?

 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:08 pm 
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He has but that was with a lot of jiggling the transport options.

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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:14 pm 
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I can see why people were concerned that an all dreadnought formation might be used for an under-costed air-assault option.

Just a thought, but what if the all dreadnought formation started out too large to be carried in a Thunderhawk?  Would that remove the main concerns about the formation?

Say 5-6 dreadnoughts for 250-350 points?
(Landspeeders & Bikes come in formations of 5 and Tacticals are 6 so this doesn't break the mold)





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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 03 Jun. 2009, 19:14 )

I can see why people were concerned that an all dreadnought formation might for an under-costed air-assault option.

Just a thought, but what if the all dreadnought formation started out too large to be carried in a Thunderhawk?  Would that remove the main concerns about the formation?

Say 5-6 dreadnoughts for 250-350 points?
(Landspeeders & Bikes come in formations of 5 and Tacticals are 6 so this doesn't break the mold)

At 5 or 6 they could still fit in a Landing Craft although this would be an expensive air assault.


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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:33 pm 
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I think the 4 strong formation is based on there being some fluff on 4 per company.

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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:33 pm 
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According to Imperial Armour 2 a Thunderhawk Gunship can transport only a single Dreadnought and takes up transport space equal to 10 power armoured Space Marines. Spare room can be used for other troops but there is simply not enough room in the Thunderhawk for more than one Dreadnought.




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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Whilst I agree that a Dreadnought Detachment would be great, would a chapter have enough Dreads to allow for this to be a viable option?

Also with testing the formation was too powerful to be 4no. and air assault capable

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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 03 Jun. 2009, 21:33 )

I think the 4 strong formation is based on there being some fluff on 4 per company.

That's a very liberal estimation; I'd hazard a guess that it's more like 2-3 on average. Ultramarines chapter roster in Codex: Space Marines 5th edition gives a total of 26 in the chapter, and only 3 companies have 4 or more (Emperor alone knows how 9th company got their paws on 7 of them). Of course, part of Ultramarines' armory was destroyed in the Tyranid Wars, but most of their Dreadnoughts were probably repaired in the time since, and they were likely to have quite a few of them compared to less illustrious chapters.

Dreadnoughts are also very permanently assigned to particular companies - even when the guy inside croaks, the shell isn't reshuffled back into Chapter reserve, but instead given to another one from the same Company. That also makes larger formations harder to arrange, compared to stuff like tanks that come from a single pool.

BL - that's kind of a moot point as you can already fit 2 dreadnoughts in a T-hawk in Epic:A, and it fits 40 guys, not 30.





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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:06 pm 
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On the fluff side I dont think we need to worry about that too much.  The reason being that nearly every list CAN be used to create highly non-fluffy armies (anyone care to post details of the IG army made of nothing but shadowswords? Or the entirely non-mechanised Steel Legion regiment? Or the all terminator/scout/landspeeder Tornado marine chapter?)

If we think that the fluff can support a formation of 4 then surely its not s stretch to suggest that they could in fact make it 5?

As for putting them into a landing craft I wouldn't expect them to be any better than terminators on a cost for effect basis.


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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 03 Jun. 2009, 20:06 )

anyone care to post details of the IG army made of nothing but shadowswords?

4 x Shadowsword companies
2000 points

I can do all Baneblade as well.

re terminators

Both with chaplain
Dreds
5xMW4+
4x4+
2 1/2 MW hits
2 normal hits
Terminators - 400 points
5xMW3+
4x4+
3 1/3 MW hits 120
2 2/3 normal hits 150

If the wanted the same hit to points dreds with chaplain would weigh in at 300 (250 on own). Then of course in an assault termies are twice as survivable, making the case for the 200-225 formation. But cheaper than termies with similar hitting power gives a more throw away air assault. Plus the armour may not be RA but some armies find it hard to cope with AV's, especially when they are air dropping. Also you could possibly take loads of these formations.
If you didn't allow dreds chaplains it alters their air effectiveness somewhat and instead pushs up the firepower dred option as the garrison.

Maybe without access to upgrade and a 2 CC 2 shooter fixed dred formation would be ok at 200. Still cheap to air assault with, but not as nasty. I think I may have something there sherlock.




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 Post subject: No Dreadnoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:55 pm 
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TRC.. my comments on the all shadowdsword IG army was in reference to fluff armies... Not army lists!  If you can point me to the GW background material that mentions such an army I will be surprised.

And my comparison with Terminators was when the formation size was 5+ and they were carried in a Landing Craft.  So how throw away is that??


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