I really think a bigger assault formation is needed.

What could you do with a larger Assault formation that you couldn't do with the Assault + Fast Attack upgrade or a Tacs + Assault upgrade?

Or are you wanting to do 6 Assault + fast attack for a total of 8 units?

(I ask because I was planning on doing this in the Raven Guard list to emphasize their use of Assault Marines - 6 Assault for 275 + up to 2 unit upgrade for 50 each is close in price and capability to the White Scars 8 bike formation)

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Neal

To my mind the Blood Angles base their army around assault marines. In the GW codex they are troops and the veteran option.

I'm also wondering why the BA's have no armour formations?

Hmm... BA are focused on CC which includes assault marines, obviously, but to me it seems the Raven Guard has been put forward as the "assault marine specialists" as compared to other chapters.  I suppose that the first step is to sort of differentiate the SM variants in terms of theme and make sure they are separate.  Here's the way I see the split:

BA - CC-oriented, manifesting in better support for Assault formations, Assault option for Tacticals, Death company, and fast assault support vehicles (i.e. armor integrated into the infantry rather than separate)

RG - guerrilla tactics and a direct emphasis on assault marines, manifesting in Assault formations with lots of options so they can be customized for several roles (almost like Tacs in codex), scouts and planetfall tactics

No doubt opinions on that will vary.  I think the difference could be that BA uses a lot of Assault Marines in close support of a core of other units/formations, whereas RG flips that to use other units in close support of a core of Assault marines.

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For the record, I see the other SM lists as...

DA - mostly Codex, with stronger elites (Ravenwing and Deathwing)
Salamanders - fire-theme weapons and heavier armor, lack of speed, FF tactics
Scions - armor, firepower emphasis
Space Wolves - larger formations, lack of higher tech, assault emphasis
Templars - neophytes/infantry horde, lack of support, horde tactics
White Scars - bikes and speed tactics

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Neal

Note that both Blood Angels and Raven Guard have their Chapter organised to the Codex Astartes. So they don't have more Assault Marines than any other Codex Chapter.

But both tend to equip their Veterans with Jump Packs and seem to use Assault Squads from the Assault Reserve Company in conjunction with the Battle Companies (this is why Blood Angels can have Assault Squads as Troops rather than Fast Attack).
If you use more than 4 Assault units (= 20 Marines)in addition to other Infantry in the army then you definately field more than one Company.

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I looked it up.  BA Scouts (in the pdf) are in the Elites instead of being a Troop selection, giving them both fewer slots and more competition.  In practice, that means BAs have fewer scouts in 40K armies.

The scary thing in this discussion is that my Epic and 40K SMs are a BA successor chapter.  I guess that just goes to show how long it's been since I actually played 40K.  

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Neal

In Codex Dark Angels and according to rumours in the upcoming new Codex Space Marines Scouts ar emoved fromTroops to Elite too.

So there is no special treatment for the Blood Angels Scouts anymore.

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Perhabs an interesting tidbit from the current WhiteDwarf.
There is anew Apocalypse Datasheet for an Blood Angels Thunderhawk Assault Force.

It includes:
3 Thunderhawks
Chapter Master Dante with Honour Guard (Dante + 5 Marines)
Chaplain with Death Company (Chaplain + 10 Marines)
1 Veteran Assault Suqad (10 Marines)
2 Tactical Squads (each 10 Mariens)
4 Assault Squads (each 10 Marines)

In Epic this means:
Thunderhawk with 2 units Death Company, 3 Assault units, Supreme Commander and Chaplain.
2 Thunderhawks each loaded with 2 Tactical units and 4 Assault units.

Because of the uneven number of Assault units in the first Thunderhawk i igore this and look at the other Thunderwhawks units.
There it seems quite usual to upgrade an Assault Detachment with two Tactical units.

So it seems the other way around. Not the Tactical Detachment should be upgraded with extra Assault units but the Assault Detachment should be upgradeable with 2 Veteran Assault units (= ruleswise generic Assault units), Tactical units and perhabs Devastator units too.


Placing the Assault Detachment as the core of any Blood Angels army which could be upgraded with a lot of stuff (and more/different)usualy only available to Tactical Detachments in other Chapters emphasises the assaulty style of the Blood Angels (at least to me).

Thoughts?

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BL you seem to have not accounted for the Honor Guard in your division.

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I did. The "3 Assault units" in the first Thunderhawk are the Honour Guard (5 Marines including Dante = 1 Assault unit + Supreme Comander)and the Veteran Assault Squad (10 Marines = 2 Assault units).

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There it seems quite usual to upgrade an Assault Detachment with two Tactical units.

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BA - CC-oriented, manifesting in better support for Assault formations, Assault option for Tacticals, Death company, and fast assault support vehicles (i.e. armor integrated into the infantry rather than separate)

RG - guerrilla tactics and a direct emphasis on assault marines, manifesting in Assault formations with lots of options so they can be customized for several roles (almost like Tacs in codex), scouts and planetfall tactics

No doubt opinions on that will vary.  I think the difference could be that BA uses a lot of Assault Marines in close support of a core of other units/formations, whereas RG flips that to use other units in close support of a core of Assault marines.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Well, there's always the question of whether that was written for the benefit of 40K as a game (wanting an assault marine variant list) as opposed to adherence to the background, but fair enough.

If that's going to be the way it's run, I suggest the following:

Assault - 4 units - All the codex options, plus Assault, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support (maybe even Hunter?) - 175
Tacs - cut the Fast Attack (you'll want to force them to take Assault Marines rather than bikes or speeders); maybe cut the Heavy support, though you'll probably want to keep slots for Baal Preds open.

Upgrades:
Assault [replaces current "Assault" upgrade] - Add 2 assault marine units - +75 points

That could give 6-unit Assault forces for 250, with the option to add all sorts of support - bikes to round out 8 Thawk-able units (still 350 points - same as 2 assault formations), Speeders for additional FF/BM placement, etc..  The assault formation becomes extremely flexible as to composition, allowing it to move into a general-purpose role.

I wouldn't mess with adding Tacs to Assault formations, regardless of the Apocalypse datasheet.  I think it's going to be a waste of time in Epic.

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Neal

I wouldn't mess with adding Tacs to Assault formations, regardless of the Apocalypse datasheet.  I think it's going to be a waste of time in Epic.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment