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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Markconz
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:08 pm 
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Gamey and more stuff that can potentially slow down a game.

Don't allow it.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:01 pm 
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Making Pods an upgrade is an option, but it will still take clarification of some sort.

Otherwise, you could just take free Drop Pods with every formation allowed to have them and you're back in the same boat.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:29 am 
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Making them a free upgrade that replaces Rhinos ala Bikes/Attack Bikes would mean that they'd have to be set when you write your list (Just as you set your number of bikes & attack bikes when you write your list).

I think that's a good thing.




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:11 pm 
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As I stated on the SG boards, I do think that the Marine player should be forced to decide between Rhinos/Razorbacks or Drop Pods as a part of army selection, and not change between games. However, I still believe that whatever option is selected, they can be left at home to allow a garrison.

For me, allowing a free swap between Rhinos and Drop Pods is a step too far. We are, after all, talking about tournament style games primarily here.

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rpr
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:15 pm 
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I do not support swapping between games in tournaments but instead to be decided when army contructed.
How to write this down? Put to marine list as updates:
drop pods 0 pts    ("if you take this, the formation cannot have any armored vehicles..")
rhinos 0 pts     ("get enough rhinos to transport all tactical,.. without any other transport")
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M4jumbo
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:39 pm 
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I agree that for Tournament lists, transport should be chosen during army selection.

In reference to teleporting, wraithgate, etc, those are really just alternate methods of deployment, not unit transports so I don't think the same rules would apply. (ie specifying them at army selection.)
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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:34 pm 
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I don't see much of an issue with letting the player swap Rhinos with Pods. The Marine player has had to buy a spaceship to to do this and there are very few formations that can use Drop Pods.

It will also give Marines a very slight boost (which we all agree that they need)

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:13 am 
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i agree 100% with Ginger here. I've played in a few tournaments now and it's never been an issue. It's taken as  standard operating proceedure and no one has complained. It's how it's been before why change it now?
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jb1
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:00 am 
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...I really don't have any problem with the way the Transport rule is now. If anything is "funky" here it is trying to add all this nonsense I see here.
I play Ea as it is right now,no problem. It seems that when I get on this forum I get confused with the changes I see that are trying to be "passed". I'm not being a Weisenheimer here but just stating what I see here.
If I had changes,yes, I would submit them. But I don't, not yet...
Let the games continue...

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:42 pm 
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There are essentially two issues here; how to word the Marine transport rule to make it clear, and; whether to allow players to make transport decisions at deployment time (which affects the wording of the rule).

I think Neal's wording works well; to *Add* razorbacks and then to determine the transport requirements for the remainder of the formation. (Landraiders could also be handled like this, though IMO this is much less of an issue as they are so expensive and only really apply to Devastators.

Regarding the timing of the "transport choice", IMO Marines should be able to swap Ground transport for Pods at deployment time for several reasons, not least because it matches the background of the army. Essentially, the player must make a decision at army selection time to build these "choices" into his list, and that decision has several costs associated with it both in points and unit selection, which in turn shapes the way the army will subsequently be used. The implications of permitting this are limited as this only applies to a small portion of the forces available (maximum 20 infantry units, 3-5 formations), and IMHO are probably balanced slightly against making such decisions at deployment time because of the tradeoffs involved.

It is also worth noting that on the tournament scene at least, very few Marine lists make use of Planetfall (which is central to this particular debate). This suggests to me that although a powerfull tactic, Planetfall is not deemed to be generally as viable a strategy when compared with others, though it is more suited to particular opponents. So IMO, allowing the Marines to buy greater deployment flexibility will give them a welcome but slight boost.

Finally, it would not seem to have a great impact on the playability of the game other than a slight refinement of the tournament rules regarding formation costs etc, because a lot of the choices are essentially pre-planned, so do not actually take up much time during the game.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Since we are talking about tournaments here we need to talk about fairness and gamesmanship.  I would never pull something like this 'swap' on somebody as I see it as beardy/cheesy/cheating.  Likewise I would see it as cheating if somebody tried to pull it on me.  We're not talking about where something is deployed from but the actual composition of the formations.  The Eldar-argument holds no water since their formations do not change.

Tournaments are supposed to be blind anyway - so the fact that nobody knows if the SMs are showing up in Rhinos or Drop Pods is what matches the fluff.  There is no need to extend the blind selection to picking whatever suits you when you see what your opponent has brought.

Even if you disagree with me, there are enough people who think this is flat out cheating to change things around.  You can still have your house rules and friendly games allowing this sort of tactic if you really feel you need it.

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jb1
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:48 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 16 2007,11:34)
QUOTE
Since we are talking about tournaments here we need to talk about fairness and gamesmanship. ?I would never pull something like this 'swap' on somebody as I see it as beardy/cheesy/cheating. ?Likewise I would see it as cheating if somebody tried to pull it on me. ?We're not talking about where something is deployed from but the actual composition of the formations. ?The Eldar-argument holds no water since their formations do not change.

Tournaments are supposed to be blind anyway - so the fact that nobody knows if the SMs are showing up in Rhinos or Drop Pods is what matches the fluff. ?There is no need to extend the blind selection to picking whatever suits you when you see what your opponent has brought.

Even if you disagree with me, there are enough people who think this is flat out cheating to change things around. ?You can still have your house rules and friendly games allowing this sort of tactic if you really feel you need it.

Here,here, I second that!

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:03 am 
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Even if you disagree with me, there are enough people who think this is flat out cheating to change things around

Umm so Mosc, just to clarify, you think that for the last few years that EA has been around that the rules written by the SG team mean that anyone who did this was "cheating"? I'm not sure they would have written rules for cheats.... I would have imagined that the SG team saw a high degree of flexibility in the Marine list and bulit in a trade-off (you get quick deployment vs. having to spend points on a Cruiser and reduce your formation numbers).

I have to say, I do disagree with you and I would assume - as from your side of the discussion - that others would too.

No rules can make everyone happy. I'm wondering why this "problem" has only come up recently. EA has been around a while. Whether or not people have felt this was a problematic rule since day 1, why is it now only coming out in public discussion? What has suddenly made it a "problem"?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:32 am 
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I third Mosc.


What has suddenly made it a "problem"?


Biggles (Legendary rules lawyer from the SG forum) realised it was maybe allowable by RAW. I don't think anyone had realised it before him.




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