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Some numbers for Marines

 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:58 pm 
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You want to learn about my system?  OK.

First let's go over some assumptions:

- Epic: Armageddon, being a wargame, can be reduced to a numerical system.  Once the numbers equal out within the rules it will be declared fair (or balanced.)  Beyond the numbers the player?s abilities, the terrain present, the tactics used, and any special circumstances are what will tip the balance to a victory for one side or another, therefore outside of the scope of this exercise.

- The primary factors affecting the performance of a titan weapon is its rate of fire, its probability to hit, and the range to which it can fire.  All of these factors are multiplicative; the potential firepower a weapon can inflict is its rate of fire multiplied by its probability to hit multiplied by the range to which it can fire.  

Reasoning:

If two weapons have the same probability to hit and can reach the same range, yet one can fire twice as often, does it not have twice the value of the other?  

If two weapons have the same rate of fire and the same probability to hit, yet one can fire twice as far, does it not have twice the value of the other?  

If two weapons have the same rate of fire and can reach the same range, yet one is twice as likely to hit, does it not have twice the value of the other?

- Average dice rolls will prevail with all weapons performing to their average abilities.  To hit numbers and anything else involving the roll of a D6 will be reduced to their average for computation.

- There is a sufficiently target rich environment within range that a titan will be able to fire upon infantry, vehicles, or war engines as desired.  Conversely, players may not have the ability to pick whether they will fire their weapons in AT or AP mode but will have to fire at whatever is before them.  Because of this it is assumed that there is an equal chance to fire in either mode, allowing for calculations to be done based upon the average to hit probabilities of the AT and AP.

- It is assumed that players will spread their models so that there are no concentrations, drawing area effect fire from the enemy.  Each barrage template from a barrage weapon will cover 2 targets, one infantry stand and one vehicle.  Any blast markers that are placed as part of a barrage are considered to be hits.

- Typical game length is at least 4 turns, therefore single shot weapons will only contribute a quarter of their potential compared to a weapon that can fire every turn.  (ROF x 0.25)  Slow firing weapons will only contribute half of their potential compared to a weapon that can fire every turn. (ROF x 0.50)

- Typical game board size is 4 feet (120cm) by 6 feet (180cm).  Unlimited range weapons will have a max range of the corner-to-corner distance of approximately 7.38 feet (225cm).  For purposes of computing the Firepower Potential of a weapon, making it easier to compare different weapons, ranges will be divided by 15cm, leaving a number representing 15cm increments.  (For example, a 60cm weapon has a range number of 4.)  Fire Fight and close combat weapons will have a range of 15cm (1).

- The assumed average armor save is 4+ (50% chance) and is not reinforced armor.  MW weapons will do double damage since the half of the targets fired upon that would normally save will not get a save against a MW weapon.  Remember, this is an assumption, an actual average of all armor saves was not performed.

- Titan close combat weapons that have additional attacks listed are assumed to have their stats, special abilities, etc. apply to their extra attacks only, not to the attacks associated to their damage capacity.  For a couple of close combat weapons that did not have attacks  added, the value of the weapon is taken by determining the value of the CC attacks of the titan with the weapon?s special rules, then subtracting the titan?s inherent CC capabilities.

- Titan Killer (TK) weapon damage is considered extra damage, added to the number of hits made by the weapon.  Since typically armies are only allowed to put one third of their points into war engines and titans, only one third of the TK damage will be added.

WHAT I DO -

I try to compare like items, normally in an effort to make them equal.  Considering the Vindicator and the Predators, you have armored vehicles that have the same points cost, the same armor save, the same CC rating, the same FF rating, and no special rules that pertain to the chassis, such as Thick Rear Armor, Reinforced Armor, Walker, etc.

I take all of the weapons, individually, and make some conversions.  
- If the weapon can fire more than once per turn then the Rate Of Fire (ROF) is not 1 but whatever the number of attacks it can make.  
- I take the AP and AT numbers and convert them into decimal numbers.  If a weapon cannot fire in AP or AT mode then its probability to hit is equal to 0.00 since it has no chance to hit.  (So if a weapon has an AP3+ then it will, on average, hit 4 out of 6 times.  4 / 6 = 0.66667  If the weapon has an AT4+ then it will, on average, hit 3 out of 6 times.  3 / 6 = 0.5000)  Once both the AP and AT have been converted to decimals I will average them together to get an average ability to hit.  (The AP3+/AT4+ weapon will have a (0.66667+0.5) / 2 = 0.58333)  This will make calculations easier to do.
- I take the range of the weapon and divide it by 15cm to give me the number of 15cm range brackets that the weapon can reach.  So if a weapon has a 60cm range then it can fire (60cm / 15cm) = 4 range brackets.  Converting the range this way make calculations easier to do.

Once I have the weapon's numbers converted I multiply them together.  (ROF) x (Probability to hit) x (# of range brackets) = hits-range

For an example I will use the stats I would like the Imperial Titan Turbo-Laser Destroyer weapon to be:

Turbo-Laser Destructor
Range: 90cm
Firepower: AP4+/AT2+
Number of attacks: 2

ROF = Number of attacks = 2
Probability to hit -> AP4+ = 0.50 and AT2+ = 0.83333
-> (0.50 + 0.83333) / 2 = 0.66667
Number of range brackets = 90cm/15cm per bracket = 6 brackets.

(2) x (0.66667) x (6) = 7.99999 =~ 8.00

<<< --- >>>

So let's take a look at the work I did to compare the Vindicator to the Predator:

The Vindicator has the Demolisher Cannon, which has a 30cm range, a AP3+/AT4+ rating, and the Ignore Cover special ability.  Let's say that there will be an equal chance of an infantry or armored vehicle target available to shoot and that the player is not predisposed to shooting at one over the other.  That would mean that you average the to-hit probabilities, 66.667% against infantry and 50% for armored vehicles, to a 58.333% chance of hitting something.  Since various weapons have different ranges, and range does matter, as a quick way to represent the benefits of range let's multiply the probability to kill something by the number of 15cm increments the range of the weapon has.  So for the 30cm ranged weapon we multiply by 2 (30cm/15cm increments = 2) the 58.333% chance of hitting something to get a 116.667%-brackets number.  To factor in the Ignore Cover special ability, which ignores the -1 to-hit modifier (16.667% shift in probability) for cover and negates infantry cover saves, we'll multiply the final number by 1.16667 giving a final 136.111%-brackets number.

The Predator Destructor has an autocannon, which has a 45cm range and a AP5+/AT6+ rating, and two Heavy Bolters which have a 30cm range and a AP5+ rating.  Let's say that there will be an equal chance of an infantry or armored vehicle target available to shoot and that the player is not predisposed to shooting at one over the other.  That would mean that you average the to-hit probabilities of each weapon, multiply by the number of range brackets they can reach, and add them together.  The autocannon has a 33.333% against infantry and 16.666% for armored vehicles, averaging to a 25.0% chance of hitting something.  Multiply this by the 3 range brackets it can reach and you get the number 75.0%-brackets.  The heavy bolters have a 33.333% against infantry and 0.00% for armored vehicles, averaging to a 16.667% chance of hitting something.  Multiply this by the 2 range brackets they can reach and you get the number 33.333%-brackets.  Add all three numbers together and you get 141.667%-brackets.

Compare the 2 numbers: 136.111%-brackets for the Vindicator and 141.667%-brackets for the Predator Destructor and you see that the Vindicator has 96.61% as much firepower as the Predator Destructor.  I'll call that close enough to even to say that the two tanks have equal firepower.

But there is still one difference between the Vindicator and the Predator Destructor: their speed.  Assuming that the universally agreed upon change of giving the Predator Destructor a 4+ FF rating holds true the two vehicles are identical in stats except for their weapons (which I have shown to be effectively equal) and their speed.  Since the two vehicles have the same points cost it stands to reason that the Vindicator should get a speed increase from 20cm to 30cm.  That should be sufficient to make the Vindicator worth its points.

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:48 am 
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No, I didn't say that.  And considering your penchant for twisting words and meanings in an effort to get the result you want I'd appreciate it if you never paraphrase me again.  You can directly quote me, but don't speak for me again.


I apologise fully and frankly, as it appears I misread you.

I'm kinda miffed at your hostility though. I may draw different conclusions from the available facts to you, but I've certainly not tried to knowingly misrepresent your words (Which would of course be completely pointless in an open forum).

So uh, thanks for the flaming. :(





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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:03 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 14 2007,23:48)
QUOTE
No, I didn't say that.  And considering your penchant for twisting words and meanings in an effort to get the result you want I'd appreciate it if you never paraphrase me again.  You can directly quote me, but don't speak for me again.


I apologise fully and frankly, as it appears I misread you.

I'm kinda miffed at your hostility though. I may draw different conclusions from the available facts to you, but I've certainly not tried to knowingly misrepresent your words (Which would of course be completely pointless in an open forum).

So uh, thanks for the flaming. :(

Wow.... yeah...

'How to win friends and influence people' by Blarg  :D


Speaking of which...

Reducing everything to main effects and ignoring interaction effects is flawed. Even a year one or two stats paper would make that obvious. It's what they tried to do years ago in the Rogue Trader days to balance points and it failed miserably.

Used this method to come up with the brilliantly balanced  '75cm 3BP MW' proposal for the Baneblade did you Blarg?  No seriously, it's an awesome idea... lets do it! :devil:

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:50 pm 
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Blarg. After digesting that for half an hour these are the things that cropped up into my head. Perhaps they have been suggested before, I dunno .

Few questions.

1. What about TKs ability to ignore saves?


I didn't address TK in the post because I didn't want to throw too much at you at once.  (I was a little short for time, also.)  Since the base assumption is that the target will have a non-reinforced 4+ armor save then the fact that the weapon is TK is immaterial to an AV since TK is effectively = to a MW.  TK damage comes into play with the few reinforced armor INF and AV that are out there (like Terminators and Land Raiders) and war engines.  Since RA single-hit units are relatively rare I pretty much ignore them, or roll them together with war engines.  For most armies/races serious war engines make up at most, or are restricted to, 1/3 of the points of the army.  For TK damage I take the average number of TK damage, Multiply it by 1/3 to represent that it is applicable to only about 1/3 of the points that an army might field, then multiply that by the to-hit probability, then add the resultant to the resultant of the normal ROF x probability to hit.

2. I think that you are making barrage a bit too light. I more often get 3 units under the barrage (rarely under it, many times over it).

Again, it's an assumption.  In most of the games I play, especially if I'm worried about barrage weapons, my opponents and I pay a lot of attention to our spacing and make sure that we keep our clumping to a minimum.

3. Close Combat Weapons. I really think that they should be a tad worse. Perhaps 0.5 or 0.8 or something. It's a lot worse ability than FF in reality. With move over 25cm it's a tad better, but not by much. So units with move <=25cm 0.5  and units with move >25cm 0.75?

I originally had CC weapons have a 0.5 range rating, but it produced results that a lot of other people on the forum vehemently disagreed with.  I went with them since assaults have a resolution process that is different and seperate from normal ranged combat.  The 1 range rating seems to work for CC and FF weapons.

Perhaps possible to add to there

1. Invulnerable Save. Add 16.67% for it's ability to survive those hits.
2. Reinforced armour. MW doubles, so doesn't this do the same?
3. Save of the unit. If 4+ is 1, then 5+ is multiply by 1-16.667 = 0.833 and so forth.

These are abilities of the unit that typically don't vary across different variations on the same chassis.  They are also abilities of the target that may not be applicable to all targets.  Remember that this is merely a system for comparing weapons, or combinations of weapons.  When I use it to compare different units I make a point to make sure that they are very much the same.  I can factor in differences in FF rating pretty easily, and I have a SWAG for speed differences that I don't completely trust, but everything else appears to be very hard or impossible to factor in.

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:59 pm 
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I assume you're not going to apologise for flaming me then Blarg?

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:25 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 15 2007,13:59)
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I assume you're not going to apologise for flaming me then Blarg?

'E'z "D Impaler"... that'z wot 'e duz! ?'E "Impalez"! ? :D

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood... perhaps I need to apply more drybrushing...

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Drybrushing's for amateurs. :D

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 15 2007,08:59)
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I assume you're not going to apologise for flaming me then Blarg?

Well, I would like to apologize for not getting back to you sooner.  I am writing from work and a meeting called me away.

I don't feel the need to apologize to you, though, for telling you not to speak for me.  It was not intended to be a flame but a stern worded directive.  I have disagreed with a lot of how you have pursued conversations on these forums for some time, but I have not said anything.  

I really didn't appreciate how you tried to twist my numbers in our conversation last week regarding the Vindicator.  You seemed to try to turn the conversation and my results in a manner to support your opinion, an opinion I found faulty.  Again, I didn't say anything in an effort to remain harmonious.

I was offended by how you paraphrased me, incorrectly, to apparently try to further the agenda of your opinion.  You and I have disagreed on just about everything, and after all of this time I will not have you claiming I said one thing when I said something different.  I have no problem with you quoting me directly (and correctly) or creating a link to my posting.  But, considering how little I post in relation to you, I will not have the words I post with what little free time I have changed from what I actually said.

If you or anyone else would like to render an opinion on this post then please feel free to, but I'm not inclined to say anything further about this.  I've said my peace, you know how I feel, and anything further would be wasted time.  If you absolutely have to confront me about this then privately email me - don't clog up the forums with your protests.

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:25 pm 
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If you feel that sternly worded directives are required, then feel free to continue speaking to me in such a dismissive, disrespectful manner.

All I've done in our previous discussions is taken your numbers, critisised failings in your 'system', and reached different conclusions to you. Barring one mistake in this thread (Which I have apologised for, twice now), I don't think I've impinged your honour one whit, certainly not enough to elicit such an attempt at ridicule (Perhaps you prefer to attack the person, rather than the argument?).

Well, so be it, thanks for treating me as an equal, 'Blarg'.


- Ben S.





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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:01 pm 
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I'm more interested in generating some numbers that can be used later.


Agreed. Although still flawed, I think Blarg's analysis system is (And has been) a very useful tool.

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 Post subject: Some numbers for Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:38 pm 
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I didn't address TK in the post because I didn't want to throw too much at you at once.  (I was a little short for time, also.)  Since the base assumption is that the target will have a non-reinforced 4+ armor save then the fact that the weapon is TK is immaterial to an AV since TK is effectively = to a MW.  TK damage comes into play with the few reinforced armor INF and AV that are out there (like Terminators and Land Raiders) and war engines.  Since RA single-hit units are relatively rare I pretty much ignore them, or roll them together with war engines.


Sure. I can understand that from the 4+ save base. However I think that there is a larger amount of RA saves in non-WEs. For example Termies, Leman Russes, Chosen, Wraithlords. Then Eldar has a huge number of 5+RA. But granted on the basis of weapon stats, it makes little difference.

TK weapons is one of the areas where there is a big assumption compared to the smaller assumptions sprinkled throughout the rest of the system.  The basic assumption is that 2/3 of your points are going towards INF and AV and that the 1/3 limit on titans and other support will constitute an army's use of war engines.  That is a huge assumption that is open questionable accuracy depending on who the opposing force is.  If you are talking about the AMTL with their *heavy* use of titans then TK weapons become very highly valued.  The IG can come in a near second or a distant 39th place depending on how many super heavy tank companies, which are common units, are fielded.  Space Marines are relatively invulnerable (Why bother firing a TK weapon at infantry?) to TK weapons except for the Thunderhawks and Landing Craft.  In the end you have to take the assumption for what it is: an assumption that will allow you to progress.

Again, it's an assumption.  In most of the games I play, especially if I'm worried about barrage weapons, my opponents and I pay a lot of attention to our spacing and make sure that we keep our clumping to a minimum.

Ok. Well if I use this, then I'll be using 3 for barrages at least ('cause it makes sense on what I see on field). So little subjective difference there.

Be careful.  By assuming that a barrage will attack three targets you are going to force their stats down if you try to make them equal to other weapons.  But, you may be correct and I might need to change my assumption.  The case in point is the Imperial Titan weapon "Rocket Launcher."  Jervis up it from 2BP to 3BP a couple of years ago along with extending the ranges for the Gatling Blaster and the Turbo Laser-Destructor.  While the Rocket Launcher upgrade was a welcome change, it still did not make it as powerful as the other two weapons.  Not that Jervis said that was his goal, either.

I originally had CC weapons have a 0.5 range rating, but it produced results that a lot of other people on the forum vehemently disagreed with.  I went with them since assaults have a resolution process that is different and seperate from normal ranged combat.  The 1 range rating seems to work for CC and FF weapons.

Well CC weapons are worse. In Tyranid testing it has become prevalently obvious. CC beasts are not comparable to FF beasts if their stats are same. For example check out the latest tyranid list (8.3) and Malefactor/Haruspex. So I would revise it to 0.75 at least .

You have a very valid point and your solution is interesting.  let me think about it...

When I use it to compare different units I make a point to make sure that they are very much the same.  I can factor in differences in FF rating pretty easily, and I have a SWAG for speed differences that I don't completely trust, but everything else appears to be very hard or impossible to factor in.

That does lead to next part. Have you any idea on how to extend this to allow unit comparisons? That would be "holy grail" in a way

Only if they are very close together in abilities.  If I were to try to compare different types of vehicles I would want to try to do a seperate system where I could plug in weapon system numbers.  Another option would be to modify and use the system that the designer of the game "GROPOS" used to assign points to units in his game, which I happen to have on file embedded in an Excel file.

My biggest concern would be trying to compare INF and AV because the movement and terrain rules make them very different in abilities.

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