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Dreadnoughts again
1. Dreadnought Formation 43%  43%  [ 12 ]
2. 3+ armour 46%  46%  [ 13 ]
3. 5+ armour, reinforced 11%  11%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 28

Dreadnoughts again
Soren
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:05 am 
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I Like the idea of getting one free instead of taking Rhinos.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:30 am 
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(Hena @ Aug. 10 2007,08:07)
QUOTE
In part of my last post did I mention transports for dreads? I wanted to reiterate that the Chromas suggestion of changing marine transports for one dread is the best choice at the moment. None of the others come close to it.

Ah, sorry for misinterpreting Hena, I saw you talking about 'transports for Dreads' and assumed that you were talking about the topic at hand (Transporting Dreadnoughts).


EDIT:

I also disagree that swapping Rhinos for Dreadnoughts is the best solution.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:32 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 10 2007,09:30)
QUOTE
I also disagree that swapping Rhinos for Dreadnoughts is the best solution.

My proposal is swapping *all* Rhinos for *one* Dreadnought, essentially, and then still allowing up to two additional Dreads via the upgrade, to allow for a total of 3 Dreads in a formation.

We've played that way here a couple of times and it was well recieved by the Marine players.  Made some nice garrisons with Tacs or Devs as the base formation.

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Soren
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:19 pm 
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I like the swapping idea. I cannot see obvious problems with it, maybe I have ignored some facts.....#


You trade 50% of your speed for one AV target, which is pretty dead after the first hit. Fair trade I think  :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:18 pm 
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Ok Handbook 1.3, dreads in Marine and Chaos list get 3+ armour.

Not definite and fixed and leaving this open for discussion and debate.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:04 pm 
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I like the idea of LR-transport for Dreads. There's even a couple of LR variants that have never been defined. Just a LR with no twin-bolters (bigger ramp) would do the job.

There was also the suggestion for free Dreads instead of Transports for formations that want to garrison.

I voted for 5+ RA, but on the proviso that some other units could do with it. Predators, Vindicators, perhaps Defilers too. Yeah, I know it's never going to happen.

I wouldn't like to see Dreads as 5+RA and preds to remain at 4+ though. That wouldn't make a lot of sense.
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thurse
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Hi!

Chroma's idea is great, I vote for it. Great for garrsion, and it becomes a bit more tempting to put tactical in a TH now.

I would give them fearless for flavor ( not a big impact I think ). But I know there was some debates concerning that, so I could live without it
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Bombot
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:51 pm 
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Chroma's idea sounds good to me.

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Otterman
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:56 pm 

(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 10 2007,01:11)
QUOTE
I believe that there's no way we could ever get Land Raider-transported Dreadnoughts past the ERC & the Studio, even if we wanted to (And most of us categorically don't).

Jinx! Now someone is sure to come up with some kick-ass art of a Dreadnought mobility device, and it's going to become a popular Forge World product.

Then I'll laugh and laugh at you, E&C! In a good kind of way though, like at the end of 1980s cop shows where everything ends well.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:19 pm 
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Thread recycle.
===========

I have a hard time reconciling a 3+ armor save to the actual 40k abilities of a Dreadnought.

3+ armor save is almost a 50% increase in survivability over a 4+.  That means even just in Epic terms, without reference to 40K, the armor save change would make a dreadnought substantially tougher than all those 4+ and 5+RA armor saves.

Either way, to me, that just feels wrong.

OTOH, Markconz' handbook had a typo that made so much sense to me that I thought it was intentional:

3+ FF

Dreads have 2 heavy weapons (or 1 heavy and 1 secondary) and walker level mobility and flexibility in a firefight.  Their role in the background fiction is frequently described as shock troop/"up close and personal" fire support which is in keeping with assaults in general and firefights in particular.  An FF improvement would improve their ability in air assaults and drop pod attacks as well as helping their staying power when used in a garrison.

Basically, it's a decent buff in keeping with the unit's 40K stats and traits per the background.  I actually included it in the "change docs" but then someone questioned it in light of the revelation that it was originally a typo.

I don't recall this particular option being discussed before.  What do you guys think about a simple FF boost?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:05 pm 
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What do you guys think about a simple FF boost?


Yes for the Lascannon/Missile launcher Dreadnought.

For the Assault Cannon/CC Dreadnought, no.


Yes I know they both use the same datafax. :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:06 pm 
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How about dropping the cost of the upgrade?

Dreadnoughts are 50 points, and are less useful than Razorbacks (In my opinion), which cost half as much...

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Chroma
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:16 pm 
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I'm *still* pro-Dreads swapping for Rhinos, regardless of stat changes.  *laugh*

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Ginger
 Post subject: Dreadnoughts again
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:32 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 01 2007,14:19)
QUOTE
3+ armor save is almost a 50% increase in survivability over a 4+. ?That means even just in Epic terms, without reference to 40K, the armor save change would make a dreadnought substantially tougher than all those 4+ and 5+RA armor saves.

While obviously tougher, I am not sure I agree on "almost 50% better"!

Stats aside for the moment, one of the main problems here is that when fielded, Dreads are almost always the only AV in the formation. Consequently, they get stacks of fire directed at them and have to survive a whole lot more hits. Not knowing the "fluff" at all, I would nevertheless expect to hear of references to their survivability amidst a hail of fire rather than the reverse. To reflect this, I would actually prefer to give them 4+ reinforced armour rather than an increase in firepower. Equally, their survivability would be improved by factors if we could find ways of returning the other transport to the formation.

However, as I do not think giving them reinforced armour any more likely than improving their speed to 30cms or making them transportable; 3+ armour seems a reasonable compromise to me - even though it may feel inately wrong.

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