Actually amor eappropiate trait for the Dark Angels' Deathwing would be to never be able to withdraw from an Assault. If they lose the resolution roll the Assault should continue until the Deathwing wins or is wiped out totally.
And i strongly sugest that under this proposal hack down hits should work (so no Fearless but ATSKNF works).

The Deathwing Characters are somewhat of a special case as the Wh40k Fearless doesn't work if the whole squat doesn't have it. But luckily Dark Angels Command Squads in Wh40k are Fearless too and every Character can be attached to one.

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Isn't the mortis Pattern Dreadnought the twin Las-cannon/Missile launcher combo? Which is in the codex list as a loadout option for the dread's?

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EDIT: nevermind.

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This is actually an old suggestion that was hashed out extensively. In short, it completely screws the assault dynamic, which is a core mechanic and potentially devastating in its effect.

In many cases it is an advantage to lose assault by a low number because a second round of fighting with termies will cause a lot more damage to the opponent than to the "losing" Deathwing. I ran numbers on it and this changes the chance of a Termie formation killing a Reaver titan in one assault from low to something like 50% on average.

And on the other side of things, it turns a good clipping assault into a free total formation kill. Imagine a line of infantry clipped on one end by a First Strike Warp Spider Host. Kill ~2 DA in range. No return fire due to First Strike. DA lose. Repeat until all DA are killed.

One option to make the Deathwing tougher with regard to morale would be to have each Deathwing formation include a Deathwing Command Squad (or something), which has leader.

Thus, you could have up to two leaders in a Deathwing formation, and would always have one by default.

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An old suggestion was to give ALL Deathwing Terminators Leader

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Meh....I don't see ERC signing off on that. Be easier to allow double characters.


Again I don't see the ERC signing off on that either.


It is now...Frakk GW!


I believe with option of mixing Standard and Assault it was 350 for 4 and 2 more for 100. Making 450 for 6.

We could try giving the DW a Free Chaplain? Its Fluffy.

How about adding a DW to other marines formation? Makes it different. DW would be more spread out to catch the Fallen and be able to field in larger groups for pressed attacks.

So here we go.

The above - well, once the actual marine list is balanced without thunderbolts and warhounds we would have a starting point?

Otherwise you have - characters, slightly more powerful. Taken anyway. Net result slightly better army.
2 Hunters. Better concentrated air defence options. Taken anyway, now better.
Predator - old Ironwing background and better alternative to vindicator, prob replace standard pred as well as destructor naff.
Dreds. Better at both the functions dreds are used in the core list. However still can't build a list round them.
Tacticals. Better. If someone builds a list round them, great. Because they are tacticals.
Ravenwing. Interesting new capability.

The increase in ability in the various upgrades almost gets round the fact they are rarely taken. Or they are a ubiquitous upgrade so are a straight across the board rise in power.

All this to overcome the fact that a list with warhounds and thunderbolts will trounce them.

Terminators.

Yes you could. Then you would have a straight power up to terminators. Currently the option is in there for 4 with 2 extra for 100 each, or in otherwords 600 for 6 terminators and a chaplain. I think 550 for that is somewhat cheap as to shift them from cover without specialist equipment would be nigh impossible.

Why? A leader removes 2 extra blastmarkers. That means you have to have 6 on you before a double leader would even matter.


Its 2 extea for 100 each.
With every passing second I am more and more against 'assault terminators'. They just mirror the current ones, but better.



Its also a straight power up to one formation. The idea is to have a balanced army, not one that swaps one reliance for another.


Problems with transport. What do they actually bring and finally you don't use terminators as meat shields at the front to soak fire, you precision employ them!

Both these sort of things are examples of power ups to a specific formation making the list reliant on it. Or increase the cost tot he detriment of the list overall.

I'm fine with the tactical power up as they are a mainstay that aren't. Indeed if the tacs otherwise drop to 275 I'd keep these at 300.

They do - but its quite easy to do the heavy weapon swap or conversion or just paint the MM's a different colour to the others. Assault terminators are a lot harder. Luckily the proposal with say the sallies terminaotrs all having heavy flamers or all DA tacs having plasma means you don't need to do anything.

So - the land raider thing is to restrict it - prob easier if I just say tacs or devs. Terminators can already get them and scouts shouldn't have them!

Sure they can kill off their targets more surely but they will get higher casualties in return too.

As for the Warp SP#piders example. How often do you have your Terminators lined up in one string?

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You're not addressing the fact that it's good to lose assault. As long as they didn't get a disastrous resolution roll a losing Deathwing termie formation would grind through most of a Leman Russ company and slowly gain on resolution mods due to kills to probably win in the end. OTOH, a Deathwing formation that wins in the first round would only kill 3-4 Russ, including hackdowns.

Turning a lost assault into a positive result is just a bad concept. You shouldn't ever be hoping to lose.

As far as the higher casualties in return, that's not an offsetting factor. Who wouldn't suicide a 400 point formation to kill off 600 points of the enemy? It's a no-brainer.


It was an example to show how it's dorked up. It would actually work almost as well with all 4 termies in range. Barring freaky to-hit or resolution rolls, the Termies would kill 2-3 Spiders while being ground into a pulp over 2-4 rounds of combat.

Any thought to adding the Caestus Assault Ram into the list as they are "particularly common in the armouries of purely fleet based chapters"? Ditto for Black Templars too.