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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator
nealhunt
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:35 pm 
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Soren and Revenant:  I'm going with 25cm move on the Vindis.  5cm difference in move is not very much.  It's not uncommon that the faster units can 'pivot' around the slower units as you move.  The practical effects on slowing the formation are very small.

I've had substantial success with 4 Pred Annihilators, 2 Vindis, and a Hunter as a serious AT formation for the SMs.  It's definitely worth the points.

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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:50 am 
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@nealnut:

With -25pts to armor det. costs this formation you mention will be on 500! pts. Are you sure the formation is worth 500?  Maybe I play against the wrong armies but this formation will not last one turn without much luck and some "dirty" tricks.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:26 pm 
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Marine armour is totally unlike other races. You just can't tora tora tora with it. The best results I get is using a Titan to satisfy my desire to charge the centre of the enemy line and the marine armour on the flank of this supporting. Though marines have medium range and medium armour - putting them below Russ, Falcons and the excellent Hammerheads - they have ATSKNF which is a fantistic flanking ability. Incoming fire is minimised and the ability lets you shrug it off.

Otherwise you have to think landing craft. This is a great force multiplier for armour. Heres an example. Teleporting in Terminators one side of a Russ company, then flying in a laden Landing craft for a shooting action loaded down with dred supported infantry and a pred anihilator formation. One vicous crossfire later should be followed with a terminator assault. No Russ company and you should have taken zero casualties. Thats a somewhat obvious example but with the Landing Craft marines get options other armour can only dream of. Hell even planetfall can be handy for getting a forward position for whirlwinds or Land Raiders (especially these buggers). With the points values I was testing (LC 375, Terminators 350, LR upgrades 75) you can do some serious (though admittably eggs in one basket) air manovers dropping off a mechanised terminator formation. I'm sure pthers have handy LC tips (not nessecerily involving armour - 3 formations of Devs is not to be snifted at!) as well.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:47 pm 
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(Soren @ Jun. 08 2007,10:50)
QUOTE
@nealnut:

With -25pts to armor det. costs this formation you mention will be on 500! pts. Are you sure the formation is worth 500?  Maybe I play against the wrong armies but this formation will not last one turn without much luck and some "dirty" tricks.

Well, I could always be wrong.  In the games I've played with it, the formation has done just fine.

If you think of using them in the same manner as Tau Hammerheads or Eldar Falcons (minus the skimmer pop-ups, obviously) you'll have a good idea of how to use them.  With their speed, they are able to work terrain pretty well.  They should stay in range of support from the core of the SM force so they don't get picked off and just peek out enough to hit targets of opportunity.  Only deploy them aggressively for a coup de grace.

It would be interesting to hear what sort of environment you're playing in.  The formation is pretty light but it should be pretty hard to get to.  I'm curious as to what you think would crush it in one turn.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:49 pm 
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I'm curious as to what you think would crush it in one turn.


In my area, either Eldar (With their superior manueverability) or IG (With indirect artillery) would mince such a formation.

500pts for 7 tanks with 4/5+ armour saves?

Just not worth it.







5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour,  5 MW attacks - 200pts

5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour, 10 non-MW attacks - 250pts

4 Vindicators. 4+ armour, 4 non-MW attacks - 300pts


They're not even close to being on the same scale of balance.


Either Vindicators as a formation drop in points significantly, or they'll continue to stay unused.

I'm coming around to the idea of 50pts per Vindicator, whether in a formation or as an upgrade...

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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:33 pm 
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E&C is right. I?m mainly playing against IG and Eldar. Both shred my formations before made a move (worst case) or after had a double and some minor shooting (best case). As both armies host a lot of AT fire it`s nearly impossible (beside the LC) to keep them alive or even in fighting conditions. With their 500 pts they are BTS in most cases which is an extra boost for my enemy to get them wasted ASAP.

On the other side I HATE playing with titans in SM armies all the time. If I need a Warlord Titan to get rid of an army or I stay no chance, then someting is flawed within the list. I know, not every list can be balanced against each other, but marines are special.
If you play the drop list, it is frustrating for your enemy most of the time. If you are lucky, you shred a good portion of his army before he get his first activation. Most of my friends miss the "fun" playing against this sort of list.
If you play a mixed list, most of the times you are outcountered by forces which are better in some areas you should be superior (at least on the paper). Name them eldar (more popcorn and better in CC and FF than you, in the ulthwe list same SR, faster with the same air assault abilities for a cheaper price) or TAU (better tanks, better shooty, better in everything but CC and FF oh, and last but not least they are faster :) )or Orcs (did I notice the MW of Doom templates? ;) at the same speed) or IG (Vulture primary target to name one unit).

Don?t misunderstand, I like marines. It?s the army of my choice, and I will play them with whatever list you will decide to bring on, but it?s frustrating to look at the numbers compared to aquivalent units in other lists and then get an undergunned, single shot tank for 75 pts, which is OVER the point value a single Leman Russ or even Fire Prism. And  much more frustrating it?s to look at the list and see the IG to be the more flexible army. Not even a support tank  (No, vindicator is not supposed to support mechanized troops with THAT speed) can be attached to your precious mechanized Marines.

This feels wrong and on game terms this is wrong.

After quarreling a bit, now some of my thoughts:

I would gladly pay following point costs for upgrades:

Annihilator (75)
Destructor (50)
Vindicator(50)
Landraider (100)
Hunter (50? 75?)

And please, please allow my mechanized Marines to get some armored firepower as an upgrade. This would see more Annihilator or Destructor tanks in action than any to-do armored Marine list or lone Predator detachments. This would bring them where they are needed. Beside their battle brothers supporting them in their advance with a slight chance of survival.

my 0,002 cents

Soren

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:25 pm 
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E&C is right. I?m mainly playing against IG and Eldar. Both shred my formations before made a move (worst case) or after had a double and some minor shooting (best case).


Can you guys explain this more?

What kind of forces (specific kinds of units) are tearing them up?  What kinds of deployments and terrain are you and your opponents using?  How are they getting to the Preds to tear them up?  If the Preds are weak, why is the enemy expending the effort to hit them?

5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour,  5 MW attacks - 200pts
5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour, 10 non-MW attacks - 250pts
4 Vindicators. 4+ armour, 4 non-MW attacks - 300pts

This kind of extremely superficial comparison bothers me immensely, E&C.  I know you know better.  You might as well be claiming that a Warlord titan is "not even close to being on the same scale of balance" as a Leman Russ company because the Russ have more firepower and units/DC for fewer points.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:06 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 08 2007,16:25)
QUOTE
E&C is right. I?m mainly playing against IG and Eldar. Both shred my formations before made a move (worst case) or after had a double and some minor shooting (best case).


Can you guys explain this more?

What kind of forces (specific kinds of units) are tearing them up?  What kinds of deployments and terrain are you and your opponents using?  How are they getting to the Preds to tear them up?  If the Preds are weak, why is the enemy expending the effort to hit them?

Enemies attack the Pred formations because they know that (Rare for Marines) they have a semi-decent ranged ability.

Enemies hit Preds formations with indirect, template artillery, which inflicts hits on 4+'s. Tends to be about two BP3-sized barrages and your predator formation is toasted.

Alternatively, the Predator formation doubles forwards to shoot, and is then within range of the entire enemy army, ensuring its death is even quicker.


Here's the problem, Preds are (For a tank formation) very fragile, but also moderately punchy at short range. So the enemy knows that:

a - Preds are relatively easy to kill.
b - Preds have to come into range in order to shoot.


So either the enemy hits them with artillery and the Preds never get that shot, or the Marine player knows that he has to double his Preds forwards because they're highly unlikely to survive into turn 2, and thus the Preds are quickly taken out with counter-fire (An unavoidable self-fulfilling prophesy).


Vindicator formations, on the other hand, are generally ignored by the enemy (They're quite simply rubbish at killing the enemy with only 4 shots and 25cm speed/30cm range), and cursed by the Marine player for being useless.



5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour,  5 MW attacks - 200pts
5 Land Speeders. 4+ armour, 10 non-MW attacks - 250pts
4 Vindicators. 4+ armour, 4 non-MW attacks - 300pts

This kind of extremely superficial comparison bothers me immensely, E&C.  I know you know better.  You might as well be claiming that a Warlord titan is "not even close to being on the same scale of balance" as a Leman Russ company because the Russ have more firepower and units/DC for fewer points.

You're obfuscating and you know it. For their cost, Vindicators are the worst unit in the Marine armoury. :)




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:06 pm 
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I'm not obfuscating.  Your comparison blatantly ignores material facts like the vulnerability of LV unit type and the difference in to-hit values.

Enemies hit Preds formations with indirect, template artillery, which inflicts hits on 4+'s. Tends to be about two BP3-sized barrages and your predator formation is toasted.

???  What is the point of this comparison?  

Of course it smacks them down.  You're talking about committing 500 points of units to attack 275.  It's almost twice the number of points.  If you fire double the points of artillery at any reasonable target, it better take a serious beating.  Expecting anything else is totally unrealistic for play balance.

If you want to put this comparison in perspective, drop barrages from 2 arty companies on top of a Russ company and see what happens while you're at it.  2 disrupt Bombard shots hitting 5 Russ under 3 templates (which is pretty low numbers in my experience) will average 5 hits.  To be sure, it's fewer % kills but if the Russ fail only a single save the whole company breaks.

This vulnerability to barrages is going tob e more pronounced in smaller, more elite forces like SM and Eldar.  They should easily be down 1/4-1/3 in unit strength from that kind of punishment.  Many formations will also be broken when hit by 2x points in arty (e.g. Falcons or an EoV).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:30 pm 
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What is the point of this comparison?


I'm not comparing artillery versus predators Neal, I'm just describing the usual fate of Predators in my area, death by artillery. I'm making few specific conclusions beyond that, although I am subtly intimating (As usual) that Marine ground-based formations are overpriced.




Predators are expensive, fragile, and only pack a medium-sized punch.

Vindicators are expensive, fragile, slow, and pack far less of a punch.


Deploy them on the ground rather than via a landing craft and both of the above tend to get killed before turn 2 (Okay the Vindicators will probably survive into turn 2, as the formation is so innefective for its points as to normally be safely ignorable until the proper threats have been dealt with).


I'm not obfuscating.  Your comparison blatantly ignores material facts like the vulnerability of LV unit type and the difference in to-hit values.

Yet somehow in my experience Predators are killed sooner in a game than Land Speeders. Odd that. There's probably an experience-based weighting in my thoughts somewhere.

Bombard

Manticore.




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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:26 am 
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The problem is the enemy wants to get rid of them before they get off a shot. And this attention is too much for Predator tanks in most cases. Even average CC troops or shooters are enough to make them useless. You have to invest much more energy to eradicate e. g. a well placed beefed tactical squad than 4 or 5 predator tanks.

In my view thats the problem.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:31 am 
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I think Predators should be available as an upgrade in the same way as Vindicators.

I see Predators as light to medium tanks in a support role for infantry and not as a formation of its own. Annihilators perhabs can go out tank hunting on its won but Destructors are cleary a support tank (but not so specialised as Vindicators).

Also see here about Infantry Tanks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_tank




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:40 pm 
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I think Predators should be available as an upgrade in the same way as Vindicators.


Agreed.

Just like Vindicators, they don't work properly as a formation on their own.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:32 pm 
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Wednesday I tested the Vindicator with the following stats.

Vindicator  AV, speed 30cm , save 4+, CC 6+, FF 4+
Demolisher  range 30cm    AP3+/AT3+   Ignore cover
         and   (small arms)                        Ignore cover
Notes: Walker

The formation of four (for 275) rushed forward withe a double action trought the ruins (loosing one tank even with walker) and nearly destroyed the Supa Stompa. But got viped out in assault by Ork Bikes, Buggies and Scorchers.

With this states Vindicator is a tank for Double action!

Edit: Changed Supa Gargant to Supa Stompa (propably I was writing Gargant because I use a Gargant model for it)
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