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Imperial Fists Development

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:36 am 
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@Ironclad Dreadnought: Well discussing stats for the Ironclad Dreadnought and Siege Dreadnought was one of the very early things here :)
The Ironclad Dreadnought is the GW version of a Siege Dreadnought (it has enhanced armour and a Seismic Hammer after all). The actual Siege Dreadnought is FW's version.

But basically these two should be the two Dreadnought variants the Imperial Fists use. Siege = FF and short range shooting specialist, Ironclad = CC specialist and "meat"-shield.

@siege themed Titans i thought about Power Rams, Wreckers, Corvus Assault Pods, etc.
Eg a Warlord Titan with two Corvus Assault Pods full of Terminators and Carapace mounted Apoc.Missile Launchers. A Reaver with a Power Ram.

@Thunderfire Cannon: You stats are pretty much the agreed upon ones in the thread no on is able to find again. Only the two fire modi of Disrupt/Ignore Cover are missing. Not sure if it should be Infantry or Light Vehicle. After all it has only one single crew member (the Techmarine operating the gun) while most other "Artillery" has 3-5 crew members.

Another thing: Castellan Incendiary Missiles (= Ignore Cover) for Whirlwinds?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:44 am 
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Where does he get all that wonderful knowledge?! :)

BL, you know I am always happy for you to do the stat work for units. I have a vision of your study with shelves of books, that when a question comes up, you get the ladder out, climb up to the correct shelf, and withdraw the book with the wealth of knowledge requested. You really need a business card :D

I will go back to the Ironclad and look at it again. In relation to this, are you stating that you see the IF without a long ranged Dreadnought? I think this would be a mistake...

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:45 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Bastions. Seems that's the new idea in defensive positions in Apocalypse at least - not that we have to follow Apocalypse but if it's the new GW idea.... Would be cool to have some modelled up.

"Bastions" are statted up in the Cadian Shock Trooper Imperial Guard list... take a look!


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:10 am 
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Quote:
- Thunderfire Cannon - I will look into it more. Not sure about Ignore Cover but it is an easy addition. Blacklegion had some alternate stats?


My stats are a direct copy of the ones from that thread, so yours are basically equivalent. I'd agree that LV makes a decent amount of sense for the TFC - but it makes a lot of sense for the Eldar HWP, too, and that's apparently INF.

It just felt redundant to redo the entire discussion without even looking at the previous one. But since the previous one is AWOL, carry on.

Quote:
- Assault Marines - Not too fussed at present as they are the best option for grabbing objectives and far cheaper than Devs in Crusaders or Drop Pods to do the same thing


Fair enough. I'm pretty sure Assault Marines are one of the units that bears a 'Thunderhawk premium', but there's no rush.

Quote:
- You could consider adding the Whirlwind upgrade to the Tarantulas - If I consider the tarantulas to be always on Overwatch, expendable, unable to activate, and (maybe) only able to contest objectives - then the Whirlwind has not part as an upgrade in this formation.


Well, yes. If they end up being more particularly active terrain than formation, the Whirlwinds are definitely out of place. OTOH, so are the Thunderfires...

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:35 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
OTOH, so are the Thunderfires...


Agree on that point as well :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:05 am 
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In regards to buying terrain and Bastions:

I have never really been a fan of 'buying terrain' as part of a list and have usually been in favour of scenarios to handle this type of thing. I will note however that probably my most memorable game was 3000 points of Black Templars in a Fortified castle holding off 6000 points of Iron Warriors for 4 turns before transports arrived (much like the scene in Starship Troopers). Pic below:
Image

My vision for the list is not so much a force that carries along it's own Bastion or castle, but rather a force that arrives at a destination and finds itself under attack shortly after by an opposing force. When doing this, the Imp Fists (known for their ability at defence and fortification) make use of what they have at their disposal and set up for the coming battle. As they are supposed to be superior at this, the following things do make sense to me for the force:

- Fortifications
- Razor Wire
- Mines (I am going to look at these now)
- Tank traps (as 'mines' above)
- Gun Emplacements
- Tarantulas
- Bunkers - this was a small stretch however the book Sons of Dorn did have them using melta guns to fortify positions and there is no reason why established bunkers or improvised ones are not out of the realm of their skills in such a short time.

All the above represent a case of "dammit, we do not have immediate support and we are against the numbers but we will show these curs that it will not be so easy to take this area".

Now I am all for scenarios to shake things up. I am making this list up for the GT however, so anything larger than the fortifications and bunkers is really not what I am looking for. If there did happen to be a Bastion set up on my table edge however, I would pity the force having to assault it :)

===========

Also on another point that has come up - the change over for short ranged items such as the dreads to be replaced as well as the standard Land Raider. A siege is just as much about hitting the enemy from afar, as well as restricting access for them to access certain key locations. I am not in favour of reducing the whole force to 15cm and 30cm shots and relying purely on assaults to decide the battle. Hence I will be looking at a balance when considering options. Some of these are as follows:

- I have the LR Crusader in at the moment. While it is there, the LR Redeemer has no alternate role to play in the list and the standard Land Raider fulfills the need for longer ranged AT weaponry

- Dreadnoughts: I am still looking at these, however having 2 CC dreads makes no sense to me at an Epic level. They both fulfill similar roles. It is all part of the micro-detail that I would rather stay away from. A Siege dread could be either the Ironclad or the Siege - In effect the stats are not so different that either could be modelled on the stats presented. What I do take into account is, as you have pointed out, other lists may wish to use Siege or Ironclad, so I will go about separating the two listed under the one line as requested.

===========

I hope the above clarifies rather than confuses my outlook on this project. I know I am not going to please everyone, but I will do my best to gain concensus :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:18 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Had a thought about Vindicator formations: Four or Eight Vindicators, ala the Whilwinds. They're siege tanks after all.

Definitely should be in the list. Great idea E/C

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Thunderfire Cannons as upgrades to Tarantula formations seems awkard.
75pt Thunderfire Cannons seem too expensive. Remember any 75pt upgrade will always compete with the Hunter.
Also, as it's crewed, I could see it being Inf.

I agree...awkward.

Quote:
Also, as it's crewed, I could see it being Inf. - the only issue I see with this is that a lascannon could not hit it? It is quite large and slow.


Simulated Knave wrote:
Why no more Ignore Cover? Hell, if you switch to Disrupt only than you need to tone down its firepower, since the Disrupt shot is inferior. Why a save of 5+ (I was using the community stats)? It's Artillery - it has the same armor as the Tarantula (though it does have a Techmarine watching over it, I suppose). Why LV, when every other crewed artillery piece in Epic is INF?


Quote:
LV 10cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Thunderfire Cannon 60cm 2xAP4+/AT6+, Disrupt Walker


My take on this...I agree with 10cm move, 6+ CC, but I really have to go with INF on this one. I'd even argue for a better armor rating of 4+ or even 4+ w/ Reinf. Armor. Why? Because as it is a mobile artillery piece, it's crewed by a Techmarine with a better than average power armor marine save. (At least in the 40K gaming world). It's also treated as a Techmarine stats wise in 40K, So wouldn't it be better to treat it as INF and give it stats comparable to a Tac unit?. No different than a Eldar Guardian squad with Support Weapons. Should it be a formation of its own? Maybe. It suits more of an upgrade to me. They would seem kind of a rare unit to me since they are only crewed by Techmarines and there aren't a whole heaping of those guys running around the battlefield. I'd give it as an upgrade option for INF formations like the Tac and Dev squads. For Scouts...nope.

Thunderfire Cannon - INF 15cm 4+ 6+ 5+ 60cm 2xAP4+/AT6+, Ignore Cover or Disrupt before firing.

I take out Walker ability because if it's just an upgrade to a formation and not its own formation. Might as well have the same movement characteristics as the unit it is going with. Oh yeah and 50pts one max per formation.

That's my 2 cents. Let the bashing commence! ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:26 am 
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If it becomes INF, then there are two things:

1. It has no need for walker
2. It is worth 75 points - really how could you price such an awesome unit any less when dealing with 25 point margins? The only way is to buy them in groups of 2 then but I am yet to see how they are not 75 points at an INF level - they play a different role to Hunters. If they were to get a small boost, I would agree on the AR4+ save due to the tech marine...

SK - any thoughts on the above?

I would also really like to get away from the Disrupt OR Ignore Cover option. I would rather it be one or the other. At present there appears to be more viability for Disrupt than Ignore Cover. Otherwise give it both?

SK - again, any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:58 am 
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frogbear wrote:
All the above represent a case of "dammit, we do not have immediate support and we are against the numbers but we will show these curs that it will not be so easy to take this area".

Awwwww, boo! Any SM list can run with that idea. I was looking forward to a "we're the most hard-arsed defensive army there is. Just try and take our well prepared defended positions." :)


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:02 am 
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@frogbaer: Well all my WH40k related books are in the sheöfes right next to my computer table :D

@Thunderfire: There is an Apocalypse datsasheet for Thunderfire Cannons. It contains 4+ Thunderfire Cannons and is called a Thunderfire Defence Battery.

And just for consitency sakes: Make it Infantry. It has a crew (unlike Tarantulas) so it should be the same as any other crewed artilletry/gun piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:34 am 
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I agree with BL re: Inf status.

Also, a formation of 4 sounds fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Awwwww, boo! Any SM list can run with that idea. I was looking forward to a "we're the most hard-arsed defensive army there is. Just try and take our well prepared defended positions." :)


Who's to say that it will not? I think you may be underestimating the Fortifications and tarantulas along with the Sniper Scouts. If they can get the activations to 8 or 9, it should be quite an annoying army to move off objectives.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Quote:
If they can get the activations to 8 or 9

Then they'll lose.

A Marine army needs 10-11 activations, especially if it's a ground-pounding army.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:51 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
@Thunderfire: There is an Apocalypse datsasheet for Thunderfire Cannons. It contains 4+ Thunderfire Cannons and is called a Thunderfire Defence Battery.
And just for consitency sakes: Make it Infantry. It has a crew (unlike Tarantulas) so it should be the same as any other crewed artilletry/gun piece.


Like I said, I am not going to be a hard-arse about it so consider it changed for the next update :)

Also I will look at the Thunderfire Defence Battery as well - although now I am getting concerned at the amount of options and formations that exist. I guess more is better to cut back from than to look for list filler formations...

So now I just need parity on the Disrupt vs Ignore Cover detail. I wonder if I can get that one over the line for the greater good? :D Someone has to fight the good fight - Mr Rogers has been absent for far too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:53 pm 
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@E&C: They have Tarantula formations. While they don't provide an activation but they have a ZOC and can contest AND hold objectives.

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Last edited by BlackLegion on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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