No I'm stating just what I said. SM's may have been written to focus on air assault in tourneys. If I thought that about the SW I would have said so. It's not my aim. My aim is to provide a list that doesn't do Marines in the usual way - just as Space Wolves do. However, there may be no getting around air assault factors in the SM list. What do any of the Space Marines lists (apart from specific difference lists like Scions or IFs) do to justify it? Blood Angels? Raven Guard? They're all just flavour lists really.

To be fair I have not looked at the BA or Raven guard. If an Aussie was doing them I am sure I would be helping them out too

They definately should have the same question directed to them - as should all lists which are derived from the 'race' they represent.

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That's kind of my point though. Space Marines are defind in a certain way - any adjustments to them is really only flavour. There's only so much changing you can do and there's what, 1000+ chapters? Lists like IFs and Scions of Iron do it differently because they're defined more clearly by their roles. Most Chapters do things similarly and if they don't, in game terms, that's what comes out in the flavour IMO. Can you honestly say the Space Wolves list, as it stands right now, isn't flavoursome? Sure it uses elements of Codex but them's the breaks when you're building a SM list. Some things just transfer over regardless of how you implement them.

It has flavour. That is not the issue.

It would be great if it played differently to an air assault marine list. Essentailly by doing so, it losses this flavour.

Whether that would be through restricting the air assets and encouraging ground troop movements or something similar, I think it would go a long way in having the list playesd as you originally intended - with larger packs and ground assaults supported with air defences/assaults, and not the other way around.

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I don't mind the idea of air assault Space Wolves. I liked the imagery in A Thousand Sons where they came sweeping in from the ocean on landing craft. The swift, brutal strike seems very SW-like.

It's just something that needs to be taken into account based on design intent.

The LC landed outside the city limits, not in the city.

The fighting was all foot-slogged from that point. Hearing the packs coming up through the city is far different than having the LC land in the moddle of the Thousand Sons setting up their defensive points. A totally different imagery IMO.

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Aside from the fact it was only one scene in a novel, it still seems that they'd use the LC/TH for air assault regardless.

The thing is I'm kinda stuck either way really. If I keep them as is, air assault can be over used. If I put them in air assets/allies(technically incorrect) then they get used very little because they clash with navy or titan assets which may also be needed and that's not correct either.

I'm not keen to artificially force a specific build style through list design. Not in the current phase of the list. If I do I may lose players either way and I'm not happy with that. The list needs to be fairly flexible at the moment to iron out things like this if it becomes a real problem. The problem is no one's playtesting and/or posting about the list so far but me and Jaldon.

Neal what would you see the "design intent" being from your perspective?

The vision I have for the SW is you don't have to use air assets to be a decent army list. People just need to try it without air to see how the list works. I would hope people do so anyway.

Dude, that's your call. I thought from previous discussions that you were aiming for a "ferocious horde" feel, distinguished from the Templars "SM Horde" by more assault focus and elements that reinforce a "pack feel." If that's still true, then you just need to figure out how air assaults fit into that idea. Can it be done with lots of air? Moderate air? No air?

As far as the balance, the Commander upgrade concept helps offset the air advantage to a certain extent because it's not usable in air assaults. If it proves to be useful, that may be a substantial offset. At this point, I think it just has to be tested (a lot) to see exactly how effective it is. The list is close enough to start that.

i am still entirely of the belief that all SM aircraft should be in the 'allies' section, just like everyone elses. though i assume that the AC disagrees with me, based on the silence.

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Sorry I didn't express my question right. I meant it from the perspective of "how to implement Air lots/moderate/no air?" The pack feel is definitely the way I see the design in the other respect.


That's a fair view, but I don't necesarily believe it myself as it's a SM asset not an ally and SM are versatile. Having it where it is in the list is versatile.

You are just playing with words. You could name it Air Assets and War Engines just as easily.

You seem determined to have the list as it is so I guess that is where the discussion ends.

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Perhaps for this subject and this moment, yes. There's plenty of time to see if you're right and I'm wrong. For now though I'll will be leaving it as is. Sorry it's not to your liking. Thanks for your contribution though, you've given me things to think about.