As mention Fearless seems to fit the bill. Either no price change and swap for Inv Save or 75 for both?


Drop it like its Hot! Was never that found of it. Would have been cooler with a Plamsa Turret.


Executioner and Standard seems fine...


I think the DW LR left since the newest list....?


Ummm I would like either Plasma Tacs or a choice between the two. Salamanders have MM!


I think they have Codex ones now? I would like to see only Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes and Land Speeders personally, as I think it for fluffy.


I like Plasma! But I agree some different formations would be cool. I have been rolling this idea around in my head, but I think most people would be against it. Having DW Terminators be added in 1 or 2 to other Infantry formations. Make's if different but no too powerful. Shows the DW actively looking for the Fallen on the front lines.

So... Add 1 or 2 DW Terminator (Standard or Assault)to any Infantry formation. 75 points a piece. May have 1 or 2 Land Raiders for 75 each.

Also I would like to see Sniper Scouts for reason stated above in prevous post and get the DW Formation squared away.

Base Formation 4, may add 2 more. Can be Standard or Assault Terminators, bought in pairs.

You could make that argument for any SM character - I don't see why the DA have to be better than a standard captain etc

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The DA are unusually unwilling to run, even for Space Marines. It is one of their few defining traits.

Since the DA apparently shouldn't have extra plasma, and also apparently shouldn't have Fearless characters, it seems the only practical option is to scrap the list. Take those two things away and there's not that much left of them compared to Codex Marines.

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...

CS: Removed

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DA Characters: I don't disagree that Fearless is better than Invulnerable, but Teleport Homers hardly to counter the Intractable drawback and the list isn't taking any point breaks or other offsets. If their characters are better, I think that will be fine.

DA Plasma versus Salamanders' Meltas: The basic Salamander units are the same. They only gain the MM when they add onto a normal SM formation. That shifts the weapon load and the formation size, so there are two flavor-granting effects. It's also not enough to radically change the formation's strategic role.

Also, quite importantly, a few MM stands in the Salamanders don't introduce a huge bookkeeping headache of Slow Fire tracking. I'd be a lot more inclined to have alternative weaponry if that issue could be resolved.

===

The Master Land Raider option - Make it replace a Rhino and have it be +75. Replacing a Razorback is upgrading an upgrade, which is needlessly fiddly. Replacing the Rhino is virtually identical to formation composition (you can still use an odd-Razorback for an extra transport slot) and much simpler.

Ravenguard formations - Anyone have an answer to my questions above?

nealhunt

The Salamanders do, however, introduce a huge headache of "which little models have which gun, again?".

Resolving Slow Fire would seem likely to involve getting rid of it on the Plasma Cannon. The other alternative is to make up a Heavy Plasma Gun, but that's fudging things.

* * *

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Steve and SK: You both need to chill. This is a difference of opinion over the fluff in a game.

Ah-ha, before I start tackling everything point by point the design restriction.

No allies.

Marine armies use Warhounds and thunderbolts to make up for weaknesses. The Epic-UK DA army shows you are pretty much screwed against other marine armies without them.

Building on that anything which costs more affects your activation count and further screws the army. So all the talk of better terminators etc etc actually makes the list worse as they are having a negative overall effect.

If you dissagree with that you are unlikely to agree with anything else.

So to get round that the list has a number of boosts.

The boosts are certain upgrades and the tactical formation. These - the characters, the dreds, the pred, the 'raider - do not overwealme things as they aren't core enough to be mass exploited. The Tacticals are an attempt to boost them as now they are the non ravenwing/deathwing mainstay. The Epic-UK solution of making the devs the one to get the guns wasn't the right choice creating a less usefull formation. Tacs have less firepower and are harder to air exploit.

You then have an alternative capability in the form of the garrissoning ravenwing.

So its a mix of flavour, boosts and restrictions.

The ideal list would be a mix of ravenwing, deathwing, tacticals and formations led by white robed characters, some of which being carried by distinctive white land raiders (which otherwise would not appear as terminator transport is generally silly) and supported in key parts with more powerful upgrades.

Note I don't agree with assault terminators and think them unnessecery. I'm happy to have them in though - or normal terminators for that matter - because I know a more expensive terminator formation that contains them is actually a negative for the list, not a positive, but its not worth the arguement to convince people.

Now onto the posts individually - once I have finished this thrilling presentation.

CS: Removed

I'll elaborate on what I said - saying commissars are fearless is a good argument for saying all marine characters, all CSM characters even nobz should be fearless as each are fanatical/homicidal, not just DA characters.
BT - zealous fanatics, SW. BA even Ultramarines could all easily be fearless. By making DA fearless they are better even than a standard SM chapter master (SC) - is that right? Also the focus becomes those characters being very hard to kill not the more iconic DA units such as the mortis, ravenwing, deathwing etc.

Fluff is very good at justifying anything or attacking anything - especially if you try and follow multiple 40k editions. Tarantulas for example -or should fluff only be ignored when it suits?

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Except DA characters are notably more fanatical/tenacious than most Space Marine characters. It's not "oh, they're fanatical". It's "oh, they're fanatical compared even to the already-fanatical".



DA characters/the Deathwing have been more psychologically durable than their counterparts in other Chapters since they first had rules and coverage. Furthermore, that depiction was backed up with actual rules beyond those available to normal Space Marines in every iteration of the DA. This is just as iconic as the Deathwing and Ravenwing, and certainly more iconic than the Mortis (which, I might point out, was taken away from the DA and given to every other Space Marine Chapter).



Technically, nothing says the old-style Tarantulas are gone. Indeed, you could interpret the fluff on the current ones as hinting at the continued existence (or prior existence) of the old-style ones (the whole "no one knows why they're called Tarantulas" thing).

And there's a difference between choosing something you agree with about a particular unit over things you disagree with, and ignoring one of the (few) defining traits of an army.

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Followning deatures are the Dark Angels defining ones:

- Characters which won't back down from a fight no matter the odds. They won't race suicidal into one like, for example, Blood Angels but if cought in a fight they won't back down. They will win or die.
- Same is true for their Terminators, the Deathwing. Plus they have more Terminators than any regular Chapter. They will reach their objective or die in the process.
- The Ravenwing which are the eyes and ears of the Chapter. Usually deployed in tandem with the Deathwing Terminators to locate juicy targets (especially the Fallen) and guiding the Deathwing Terminators to destroy them.

Other things like Mortis Deardnought or Plasma Cannons are just extras to further promote the difference to Codex Chapters.

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Why do you think the DA Masters are less iconic than those units listed?


To me, stuff like Fearless Commissars are more about the drama and style of the 40K-verse than actual relative ability per a strict reading. Commisars wouldn't really be any more fanatic than SM commanders. However, it's not about "Commissars are braver than Space Marines." The image of a Commissar holding a handful of stragglers together through sheer force of will (and threat of summary execution) is really the goal.

Even if the DA aren't necessarily substantially better mechanically, if it creates an appropriate flavor and feel, it can be considered. A "last stand" feel might be a way of thinking about it in this case.