For what it's worth, here's the Titanhammer fluff and rules from 40k:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... Squads.pdf


I was never against Drone Turrets. Nor Markerlight towers. It was just that their implementation in the Tau list was very poor.

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How about just buying them like fortifications - IF may buy 3 tarantula formations which must be garrisonned 1 per objective for x pts. Tarantulas always count as being on OW, they may contest but cannot hold an objective

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That rule would only be able to apply to the tournament scenario.

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How about we at least try them as a normal formation before resorting to special rules?

I have spent some time and updated the list (to V0.2) with the range of ideas that have gone on so far.

The link can be found in the first post here: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19311

I think I have caught most if not all of the ideas. I had to make a few decisions, however I am not dis-crediting everything else. I have chosen what I believe is appropriate for the list - I hope I got it right.

I thought of starting a new thread, however I will save this for the next update - still early days of development.

So how does this list look now?
Is it more in line with how people see the Imperial Fists defending a Siege or a general battlefield?

Just for reference:
- Added Tarantulas and Tarantula Hyperios
- Removed Rhinos
- Added Warlord
- Removed Cruiser and made Battle Barge only choice
- Decided not to go with Assault troops without jump packs - reasonings based on perceived mobility required on a battlefield (no Rhinos) and also not wishing to dilute the role of the Tactical formation.
- Other minor stuff that I am too tired to remember

Edit: I do not think anyone downloaded it but I just re-uploaded it with the addition of Walker on the Thunderfire Cannon

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The Tarantula Hyperios launcher is supposed to be unable to engage/target ground targets and is considered "crappier" than those mounted on vehicles.

As a new thought on the Tarantulas, I think they should probably be "Expendable", with a non-expendable controlling unit so they don't take Blast markers as they die.

Lastly, I think the Fortifications and Static Defenses should be their own section, like with the Seigemasters, with a limit like 25% of points, not a part of "Marine Detachments".

More to come!

Agree with Chroma on the separate section for defenses thing.

One possibility for fortifications is to have the option to have fortifications OR Rhinos. That would seem to pigeonhole the list rather neatly, while still allowing it to represent assault and defense.

I recommend setting the composition of Tarantula formations. I really don't think AP4+ at 30cm is worth the same as AT4+ at 45.

I think the Land Raider Redeemer would fit well into this list - its weapons are eminently suited for trench warfare and sieges.

The Thunderfire upgrade doesn't quite make sense for me with Scouts. It'd really hamper them and draw attention, which Scouts neither want nor can deal as well with as power armor can.

You could consider adding the Whirlwind upgrade to the Tarantulas.

I'm not sure why the stats BlackLegion arrived at for the Thunderfire after much energy are being ignored. Wait, yes I am. I can't find the damn thread. Huh. Wonder where it went.



Why no more Ignore Cover? Hell, if you switch to Disrupt only than you need to tone down its firepower, since the Disrupt shot is inferior. Why a save of 5+ (I was using the community stats)? It's Artillery - it has the same armor as the Tarantula (though it does have a Techmarine watching over it, I suppose). Why LV, when every other crewed artillery piece in Epic is INF?

I think E&C's 'inactivity' proposal for the Tarantula may be the best option to keep it from being popcorny.

Oh, and a 175 point Assault Detachment isn't competitive with 225 point Devastators. I'd dial them back to 150.

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As i readit only one member in the formation carries a Vortex Grenade. It is a bit confusing that in the datasheed both the formation as the indivudual squads are named Titanhammer Squad.


@Imperial Fists V02:
- Replace "Heavy Boltetr" with "Sniper Rifles" on the Siege Scouts.
- Replace "Hyperios Launcher" with "Hyperios Platform" and "Hyperios Tracker" with "Hyperios Command Platform"
- Name the "Imperial Fists Dreadnought" what they are. Namely Siege Dreadnought and Ironclad Dreadnought (btw what happened to it? The Ironclad was supposed to go in the IF armylist?). So a variantlist isn't forced to duplicate the stats and name it "Chapter X Dreadnought".
- Your Predators have the same name and only the sposons weapons listed.
- Still: What about variant weapons for the Titans?


- and surprisingly all of the above what Simulated Knave said.

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Where does it say the ground based version is worse than the vehicle mounted version?


Seems kinda awkward?


Thunderfire Cannons as upgrades to Tarantula formations seems awkard.
75pt Thunderfire Cannons seem too expensive. Remember any 75pt upgrade will always compete with the Hunter.
Also, as it's crewed, I could see it being Inf.

Had a thought about Vindicator formations: Four or Eight Vindicators, ala the Whilwinds. They're siege tanks after all.


The AP Tarantulas have a better FF rating.

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The Hunter uses Hunter-Killer Missiles, the Hyperios uses Hyperios Missiles. You will note that the weapon itself looks completely different.
Hunter-killer Missiles have an unlimited range in Wh40k while Hyperios Missiles have only 48" (45cm in Epic).
Besides the Wh40k rules expicitly state that the Hyperios Platform can only fire at aircrafts.
Cursiously it doesn't say what happens if the Command Platform is destroyed.

Tarantulas and Hyperios Platforms should be in the same section as Fortified Positions. They are basically threated as "destroyable terrain" (= for attacking purposes as a regular formation). They can't activate and are always on Overwatch. All should be Expendable because i can't see automated weapons to be affected by morale or other battlefield conditions.

I agree about the 4+4 Vindicator formation

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Really? As long as they're normal formations it should work alright. And they're both armoury sort of things.



I charge(d) 75 points for a Thunderfire, but mine had the option for Ignore Cover, moved faster, and was infantry. And I'm still a little worried it costs too much.

So yeah.



Makes a lot of sense. I concur.



True. I'd just definitely take more AT ones than AP. AP's a lot easier to come by in many circumstances.

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/Brainstorm on
1st up...

In modern warfare armies usually attack enemy positions with greater odds, as defensive positions are hard to crack if you're fighting 1:1. Bearing this in mind, I was thinking that as a defensive list that the whole army in terms of troops should probably be of a lesser value than the opposition's. You'd make up for that with the defensive positions you buy. I would guess costing of those positions could be a modifier (e.g let's say -25% to total army cost for troops)that brings the army cost up to full value. i.e in a 3k game you only get to buy 2250 points in troops and get to spend 750 points on defensive positions.

Of course these positions are fairly tough thing to defeat so the defending force isn't just wiped off. Obviously the value of the defensive positions would need to be costed approriately - something I haven't looked at closely in this idea. I suck at pure maths so hopefully someone can work the exact costs out.

2nd...
Bastions. Seems that's the new idea in defensive positions in Apocalypse at least - not that we have to follow Apocalypse but if it's the new GW idea.... Would be cool to have some modelled up

3rd... with #1 in mind...

IF Siege list may replace objectives in their half with ...

A/ 1/2/3 level bunker/bastion/trench complex - you could then add formations to whichever level complex you bought i.e the larger the formation you want in garrison to be, the larger complex you need to buy etc. So complex A holds up to 4 units, B 6-8 etc etc
B/automated defenses e.g Tarantula emplacements for holding ground/area denial
C/minefields/razorwire - minefields really rough idea (not thought through)- any troops within 15cm of the objective are subject to a BM each turn for stumbling across them etc/moving in the area. This promotes the IF assaulting captured objectives as the enemy is already softened up. Minefields only attack enemy formations as the IF know where they're laid etc.

The list was put up to get the latest ideas into one place so a few things were missed (overlooked), namely the predator stat line My mistake.

I will look at this again today.

- Expendable Tarantulas - it's something to think about seeing they play no other part in the battle at present - leave that one for the think tank
- Fortifications in their own section - easy done
- Rhinos vs fortifications - already crossed that bridge. I am going to trial the list without Rhinos and see how it goes. They are an easy addition if the list is found wanting
- I don't think setting the composition of the tarantulas is viable as I do not wish to restrict people's decisions in this area. If a weapon is found wanting, then I will look at it further
- Land Raider Redeemer - I will look into it
- Thunderfire and Scouts - possibly correct. It was an option in case players felt they could use it in another purpose. I do not intend Siege Scouts to move much once they set up a position
- Thunderfire Cannon - I will look into it more. Not sure about Ignore Cover but it is an easy addition. Blacklegion had some alternate stats?
- Assault Marines - Not too fussed at present as they are the best option for grabbing objectives and far cheaper than Devs in Crusaders or Drop Pods to do the same thing
- You could consider adding the Whirlwind upgrade to the Tarantulas - If I consider the tarantulas to be always on Overwatch, expendable, unable to activate, and (maybe) only able to contest objectives - then the Whirlwind has not part as an upgrade in this formation.

- Replace "Heavy Boltetr" with "Sniper Rifles" on the Siege Scouts. - easy done
- Replace "Hyperios Launcher" with "Hyperios Platform" and "Hyperios Tracker" with "Hyperios Command Platform" - easy done
- Name the "Imperial Fists Dreadnought" what they are. Namely Siege Dreadnought and Ironclad Dreadnought (btw what happened to it? The Ironclad was supposed to go in the IF armylist?). So a variantlist isn't forced to duplicate the stats and name it "Chapter X Dreadnought". - I will consider these further. I did not think that there was agreement on the Ironclad
- Your Predators have the same name and only the sposons weapons listed. - as above, just an innocent omission on my part
- Still: What about variant weapons for the Titans? - what variants would you consider appropriate - remember I would rather a list that is readily accepted to play in the near future rather than one that is developing new balance proposals


- Thunderfire Cannons as upgrades to Tarantula formations seems awkard. - Looking into this...
- 75pt Thunderfire Cannons seem too expensive. Remember any 75pt upgrade will always compete with the Hunter. - as a LV it could be too expensive. I was really comparing it to 2 Tac Marines and then accounting for the reduction in unit size and came out with what SK did for his. I could always make it Disrupt and Ignore Cover rather than an either/or. Then again it could just come down to 50 points with the same stats being LV. Then, if the other items become Expendable, what about this one?
- Also, as it's crewed, I could see it being Inf. - the only issue I see with this is that a lascannon could not hit it? It is quite large and slow.
- Had a thought about Vindicator formations: Four or Eight Vindicators, ala the Whilwinds. They're siege tanks after all. - this is easily done


- Tarantulas and Hyperios Platforms should be in the same section as Fortified Positions. They are basically threated as "destroyable terrain" (= for attacking purposes as a regular formation). They can't activate and are always on Overwatch. All should be Expendable because i can't see automated weapons to be affected by morale or other battlefield conditions. - To be seriously considerred

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This will already be the case if points are spent on fortifications, sentry guns and tarrantulas, as neither of the options will probably have an effect on the GT objectives of the game (probably other than to contest once set up)



I just do not want to force the player to buy defensive structures if they do not want to. The list is made with this in mind, however I would rather leave the style of play up to the player.



Sounds great for an alternate scenario for the Total War supplement



These are all ideas for when the list gets up and running I guess. My main objective is to have a playable list and leverage off other 'tested' lists that have used similar or the same (hence the idea of the Mossinian Fortifications). If they also have mines, I will consider these also. If there is going to be a special rule for the Imperial Fists, I would rather (at this stage) have it so it does not shake things up, but rather is easily adapdable and does not need testing - much like the idea on swapping out the Terminator variants.

Still a while to go yet it seems

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