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Space Wolves 2.2

 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
While I obviously found the LC air assault nasty - two of the LC Air assaults killed both his Warhounds - once they're on the ground they're very easy to pick on


Well there is a questionable strategy right there. Not really a viable example to a discussion on costing IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:48 pm 
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And the reason it's questionable is...? The point I was making is that once they're on the ground they're separate formations and the game continues under those conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:21 am 
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Not if you wipe out a vast majority or important part of their force with that attack.

Also, did you use the strategy of a 2nd aircraft to pick them up?

As stated, the strategy used is flawed if yiou are attempting to justify the points. It is going to take far more than one failed game to providing a convincing price reduction.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:32 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
While I obviously found the LC air assault nasty - two of the LC Air assaults killed both his Warhounds - once they're on the ground they're very easy to pick on - as TRC says especially with artillery/template weapons.

So in the scheme of the game, the later turns don't factor into costing of formations and thus effect the cost of the LC? i.e it's all just about the impact of the first action?

To be fair, as Frogbear says, much depends upon how you use them. Eg at britcon I used an 'uber' air assault army (4000 points with two LC and a THawk) and I got lucky once or twice - and unlucky on other occasions! One of the big problems with the strategy is that it tends to be very hit and miss. But if used properly, the LC can survive turn #1 to return and retrieve troops in turn #2 in preparation to making a further assault in turn #3. If the opponent does not have TK weapons, or cannot hit the LC with them, they are resilient and can take a few knocks and still be very viable - hence they definitely should not cost less


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Not if you wipe out a vast majority or important part of their force with that attack.

Also, did you use the strategy of a 2nd aircraft to pick them up?

As stated, the strategy used is flawed if yiou are attempting to justify the points. It is going to take far more than one failed game to providing a convincing price reduction.

Sorry you're misunderstanding me.

I am not "attempting to justify" anything. I am not changing the price or looking to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:20 am 
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Ginger wrote:
hence they definitely should not cost less

Yes, agreed. I'm basically trying to understand why the SW LC should be 375 as opposed to 350 Codex and how that comes about in terms of costing.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:42 am 
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Not sure why the 25pts increase either. There has been an impressioin that LC are undercosted, but IMHO this is fallacious as there are hidden costs in the lists due to the interaction between formations that are not usually taken into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:48 am 
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Neal Hunt's view is that as some SW troops are cheaper by formation than standard Codex for various reasons but have a similar effect on the first action/air assault as Codex troops, there should be an upwards adjustment to compensate.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:04 am 
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As stated previously, with Space Wolf troops, you get more bang for your buck if they are air assaulting.

We already have an air assault list - vanilla list - we do not need a better one. Hence the pricing needs to be upped so as to balance it out as otherwise, they are too good at the standard points when air assaulting.

Do you want the force to be purely used for air assaults? At present, that is what it will be used as.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Neal Hunt's view is that as some SW troops are cheaper by formation than standard Codex for various reasons but have a similar effect on the first action/air assault as Codex troops, there should be an upwards adjustment to compensate.

I might be wrong. That may be less of a discrepancy with the LC.

frogbear wrote:
Do you want the force to be purely used for air assaults? At present, that is what it will be used as.

At least some sort of deepstrike - planetfall, or a combo of planetfall and air.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:18 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
Neal Hunt's view is that as some SW troops are cheaper by formation than standard Codex for various reasons but have a similar effect on the first action/air assault as Codex troops, there should be an upwards adjustment to compensate.

I might be wrong. That may be less of a discrepancy with the LC.

No worries Neal. I think I'll leave it as 375 for now though.

nealhunt wrote:
At least some sort of deepstrike - planetfall, or a combo of planetfall and air.

Aside from Frogbear's negative view of it, I think jacking the price up too much will see them unused most often than not and really just runs against the fluff. I also think that you can't really get around Marines air assault as it's something they do well. In fact I'm starting to think that that's just a fact of life with a marine list and complaints about seeing too many marine air lists is just something we have to deal with.

It might just be a possibility that the SM list was written to be just such a thing and all the other gear in the list is for scenario/friendly play. If you know it's coming in a tourney you should be able to work out how to defeat it, right? Actually, wouldn't that be a weakness of a SM tourney list if it follows that design?


Last edited by Dobbsy on Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Aside from Frogbear's negative view of it,


? Are you talking about my feedback on the air assault or your use of them?

Take it as you see it I guess. It was never meant to be negative - just helpful. I thought you would appreciate feedback rather than silence.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:26 pm 
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No no I meant negative in the sense that you don't like seeing air so much (boring etc)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
It might just be a possibility that the SM list was written to be just such a thing and all the other gear in the list is for scenario/friendly play.


Are you stating that the Space Wolves are only for friendly play?

If not, what does it bring to the table that is different from the Vanilla Marines list to justify it as a seperate tournament list - knowing that only air assaults/deep strikes will be taken?

That is the key question to all my discussions.

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Last edited by frogbear on Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
It might just be a possibility that the SM list was written to be just such a thing and all the other gear in the list is for scenario/friendly play. If you know it's coming in a tourney you should be able to work out how to defeat it, right? Actually, wouldn't that be a weakness of a SM tourney list if it follows that design?
- - - Which is why most tourneys see a reaonable amount of AA / air-power, and especially the use of Night Wings :)


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