The Devastators are present, they just happen to be manning the various Predators, Vindicators and Whirlwinds that are heavily present in the Scions list.
The Assault Marines I'll conceed can't be taken...but nor can Drop Pods or standard Thunderhawks.
The whole point is it's a Codex Astartes army during a 'ground-based' operation.

What you want is all the benefits and power of an Air Assault list with dirt cheap ground support for it.



Are you serious with this argument, by this logic all IG players can only play Armageddon Steel Legion Mechanised armies with the Steel Legion list.
With a splash of paint and an imagination this clearly isn't the case.

I can quite happily use my DIY Chapter models and background whilst using the Scions or Codex lists, just as my IG are my DIY regiment.



I'm beginning to think you haven't even looked at the Scions list. My Scions 3000pts contains twice as many Tactical Marines as most Air Assault lists would bother with. It also contains far more Rhinos than they would use.

Besides which, since when have Armoured Companies not moved along the ground?

The only time Marines would fight protracted campaigns on the ground is with ample support from Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators and Land Raiders.



And my question still remains elusively unanswered satisfactorily. Why do people want a Scions list by another name?
Even your suggestions for variant Land Raiders has already been done.

My Scions 3000pts for reference:

Tactical- 4x 1xChaplain. 2xRhino. 1xHunter. 4xPredator Destructor. 1xRazor-Twin las.
Tactical- 4x 2xRhino. 2xPredator Annihilator.
Tactical- 4x 2xRhino. 2xPredator Annihilator.
Heavy Tactical- 4x 2xLand Raider.
Heavy Tactical- 4x 1xSupreme Commander. 2xLand Raider.
Whirlwind- 4x 1xHunter.
Scout- 4x 2xRhino.
Thunderhawk CAS
Thunderhawk CAS

I'd called that Mechanised, not Armoured.

No you don't. The list is okay without them. They are an upgrade to a tac or dev squad.

Of course the reason they are an upgrade is the realities we found of playing marines with limited air options designed around the typical battle company.


I tried 2 assault, 2 firepower dreds as a set formation and it worked ok.

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Assault and Devestator Marines should be present in a ground pounding Marine list.

I agree that the emphasis for the Scions is on Armour... that's why Hena is so jelous of Aurora Chapter after all!

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You mean the list where I proposed dropping most things by 25pts, but increasing the cost of Thunderhawks, LCs and Spacecraft by 50/100pts each?

The air assault list stayed about the same points cost as it is now (within 25pts typically anyway)... but you had a couple hundred extra points if you went for a ground pounder list, enough to buy an extra formation of Marines anyway.

Whether that's enough I don't know.

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i fail to see any reason to dilute the list to make room for a ground pounder option.
Marines are what they are, you dont send Black ops teams to give out parking tickets, each army has its roll, why try to merge them to have the options spread over 2 armies all i see it doing is weakening the marines for no need really.

Tim NZ

Oh the shame...though thank you for the correction.

I could have sworn it was Nappy...no wait a minute, I'm getting my quotes mixed...I believe Napoleon said, "The difficult we can do now, the impossible will take a little longer"...which also seems to apply to Epic game design on a regular basis.  

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I really like the Scions list, its made me convert a lot of Land Raiders. But it has no assault marines with jet packs, and no devastators on foot slinging heavy weapons. Like a lot of people have said, the Battle Company organization needs to be utilized, or rather utilizable (is that a word?). One might look more closely at the Salamanders and Imperial Fists, maybe the work already made on those lists could be of use in this case?

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The most interesting stuff from the Sallies list is how to make mechanised marines viable. The standard option is the extra razorback but that just patches over the rhino problem (marines are teh only list where the transports are weaker than the troops i beleive, meaning typically guys being left behind). The other is adding tanks like the scions list, but that is moving away from infantry formations. So the sallies ditched the transport rule and built everything into the upgrades system and allowed extra tranport space in the form of Landraiders be bought (note there is scope for rhinos and the like as well, but here the idea was to slightly slow the formations as well).

A general point for marines when you add anything is to be as good as a razorback, they really are great value tanks.

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There are three replies in this post.  It's how I roll.  

Jeridian:


No.  That's not the point of it at all.  

From the Scions of Iron army list, page 10 "The Scions of Iron chapter organization is based on the Codex Astartes, but it has been changed..."

It's a list that represents a divergent chapter.  



While it's mighty sweet of you to tell me what I want, as far as I'm concerned, I'd be perfectly happy to leave out Thunderhawks altogether (especially transport-capable ones).  

Now, I likely won't do that, because then no one else would ever play it other than fellow masochists, but I'm certainly not in this for ways to make Air Assault more capable.  



Technically, they are playing Steel Legion.  They may be using it to represent Tallarns, or Mordians, or even Praetorians, but they're playing Steel Legion.  

Hell, by your logic, there's no need for the DA list, the White Scars list, the Imperial Fists list, any Chaos list other than the Black Legion...



Go for it.  Me, I want to have a list that represents more generic chapters, rather than ridiculously overspecialised ones (I'll give you a hint - most chapters don't put tacticals in Land Raiders).  



Since you referred to it as a Codex list, I'm beginning to think you haven't either...

Of the nine ground formations in the Scions of Iron list, there are five that are not wholly vehicular (counting Bikes, which are kind on the fence).  Of those, all but three (Terminators, Tacticals and Scouts) include Land Raiders or some other Space Marine battle tank.  The focus of this list is not the infantry.  It's the armor.  The big, shiny, sexy tanks.  

Which is fine, but don't go claiming the list is something it's not.  



Never said they didn't.  But they're a specialised form of a ground list.  



Which the list will accomodate.  Hell, the existing list accomodates it - all those vehicles are available in large formations.  

Guess the Scions of Iron list wasn't necessary after all...  



Because what is proposed is not a Scions list.  It would remain much, much closer to the current Codex list, with additions because people are going to complain either way, so we might as well go the whole hog.  

Besides, what's the worst that will happen?  People who want to will waste their time on this, people who don't won't.  If it's any good, it'll be accepted by the community, if not it won't.  What's it bother you either way?  

* * *
The_Real_Chris:


Because the constant outcry from people saying "There's no need for it!!!1! would prevent that quite handily?    

I'm considering titling the list something like "The Apocrypha of Skaros" or something.  Make it clear that it's the Codex, but it's an alternative to the official line.  



I love you, Christopher.  I hope you know that.  ;)

Massed assault troops make me a little uncomfortable, because the basic list does seem to lean heavily toward reflecting a battle company in its formation sizes.  I'd be tempted to give tacticals the option to take two assault marine bases.  

I think I may just make a big list of stuff Space Marine chapters have access to and then start taking stuff out.  

Also, while I have you here - put the Land Raider Ares in your Dark Angels list.  You know you want to.  ;)  

* * *
Hena:


All quite true.  And I'm not sure I see a way around that.  Amusingly, this is similar to the dilemma a lot of marine armies face in 40K.  



Pretty much, no.  

Traditionally, Space Marines deal with such via orbital bombardment, drop pod assaulting, and, well, Thunderhawks.  None of which entirely fit the theme of this list.  Personally, I find the way orbital bombardment works in Epic completely out of keeping with how I think it should, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to mess with it, and making it more "on-demand" would require some serious recosting.  Of just about everything.  One option might be "on-demand" individual blasts which could be purchased from the list, but I'm not sure that's a good idea.  

So it's a tricky one.

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That'll teach me not to read quite as closely.    

And yes, those lists can be used to do the things you mention.  You can also use a screwdriver to hammer in nails.  Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy a hammer.    

There appears to be a gap between the Scions of Iron and the standard Codex list where one could have Codex formations but de-emphasize the current marine list's emphasis on air support.  



Sorry.  That was me being facetious.  Carrying Jaridian's argument to its logical conclusion.  

I think it's pretty clear you went after a tank-heavy force, and you certainly got what you were after.    It's also pretty clear, IMO, that you and I are after different things in a list.  Hence this thread.  

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I suspect you've got some serious rightness on your side here.  The tricky bit is making anything work with the existing Battle Company style formation (which is, after all, one of the intents of the list).  

Increasing unit sizes could work - could even go for an option somewhat like the Chaos list and have Battle Companies just be one big ol' formation (or two big formations - six tacticals and two each of assault and devastator).  Of course, that runs into problems with its unbreakability, but I'd say that'd be at least partly mitigated by the fact that it's unmaneuverable as hell and expensive to boot.  Doesn't seem like it would feel like the current SM list, though.  Which is arguably not a bad thing - fighting as mobile drop troops would be inherently different from fighting as mechanized infantry.  

Another option would be to give them back Thudd Guns and/or Mole Mortars.  They did have access to them once, and I have the miniatures to prove it.  Small formations, obviously.  This would also mess with the feel a lot, but it gives them some additional artillery punch.  

Could do on-demand orbital bombardment (at a hefty premium, likely).  Not my favorite option by a long way, though - there's very little skill involved in "oh, I put my blast template here".  

And at the moment, that's about all the particular ideas I have for ways to mitigate the fact that the marines don't have any real force projection without Thunderhawks.  Other than, y'know, Thunderhawks of other types and more IN support.

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My writing style is confrontational and abrupt, I'll make apologies for that- but I thoroughly enjoy topics with passionate arguments either side.
Hopefully the mods will have the maturity not to lock it as soon as it gets interesting.



Already caught by Hena, but for completeness- it can also be used to represent a Codex Astartes army fighting mostly on the ground.
A Codex Astartes Chapter is supposed to be able to fight in many ways- from airborne, to armoured, to a siege if necessary.
The Scions list can quite easily represent a Codex Chapter on the rare occasions it wants to/or must fight from the ground.



Other's commented about keeping the Air Assault element but making ground units much cheaper. I apologise if your not one of them.
All that would do is let me have an Air Assault army, with even cheaper ground support (usually the Supreme Commander sat in a now much cheaper ground unit).

Removing transport-capable Thunderhawks I think is vital if you seriously want a ground-based SM list- and the Scions list does this.
I think even ground-based Marines would use Thunderhawks in some role, it's just how they roll. It's like asking to remove Power Armour, or Bolters.
Even IG benefit from aircraft.



You want my honest answer, the DA list is unnecessary. New lists should only be created when a different play style is involved, not to pay homage to 1990's 40k supplement Codex's and GW marketing need to churn slight variations of existing model ranges out to milk the SM cow.
DA/BA frankly are not divergent enough from a Codex army to warrant a completely new list- they fight the same and GW had to shoehorn in more and more novelty units over Editions to justify the separate books (and to make some people by the same models in different colours).
If it's apparent at 40k scale, the lack of difference is stark at Epic scale.

Lists like Scions and White Scars actually bring a radically different playstyle to the game- the player is free to paint their models how they like.



SM's fighting without Thunderhawk assaults is a very specialised action, something must be very serious for a SM force to not use it's overwhelming air and space assets (such as overwhelming enemy AA, or having to fight a guerilla ground war if their orbital assets are compromised, etc).
Scions represents those times when a Codex Chapter fights from the ground.
Army lists represent an army at a particular battle or campaign or point in time- guess what, armies can adapt and change.
Space Marines especially will adapt and utilise their wide range of technology and ability for each situation. By utilising the variety of 'playstyle' SM lists like Air Assault, White Scars, Scions, etc your representing a Codex Chapter in various battles, campaigns and events- for example, normal, 8th Co, ground operations respectively.

Another hint- Land Raiders are not compulsory in the Scions list. And you can take them alone and with Terminators in the Scions list instead to protect your sensibilities.
The 'core' of the Scions list is a Tactical formation in Rhinos backed up by 2 Predators/Vindicators with the option for a Hunter and some Razorbacks. That to me is the most likely, practical and usable ground-based Marine formation hailing from the Battle Company.
3 of those formations represents a Battle Company quite adequately.



So you don't want Air Assault, you don't want Thunderhawks, now you don't want tanks- that's not a SM army, that's a battlefield massacre waiting to happen.
Not even IG can make a competitive Epic army with purely infantry.
The Epic Armageddon ruleset and modern warfare see the mobility, armour and firepower provided by vehicles- be they tanks, IFV's, or humble Jeeps/Humvees, as a vital part of any army. Even Orks have tanks.

I can't see a SM army working that basically rips out the bit that makes an army function- it's vehicles, it's mobility, it's air cover.
I can't see any Epic army working that is so nerfed- without extensive trench rules and elaborate mission manipulation to force the opponent to come to you.

My list given above- 6 formations are built around infantry with armoured support- i.e. mechanised formations. 1 is armoured...more precisely mechanised artillery, and the other 2 are air support.



Aye, I won't stand in the way of people writing army lists- it's very enjoyable to have a go.
I've churned out an IG airborne list and a Tyranid list, despite them already existing. I encourage every Epic player to have a go.

But I also put my work out their and hoped it would recieve harsh and blunt criticism. I wanted them to tear apart how my airborne list may cause popcorn (so I could correct it) or how my Nid list made Carnifex Fearless formations way too tough.

I can only offer the same when other's produce a list. I agree about wanting a version of SM's that doesn't rely on Air Assaults- I too have beautiful models of Land Raiders, Predators, Whirlwinds, etc that I would like to use and still have a chance to win with.
I think the Scions list achieves this, and can't see how it could be done better. My appreciation for the Scions list may be nauseating, but I really enjoy the list as a refreshing alternative to my Air Assault list and I have no qualms about using it for my strictly Codex (more than Ultramarines, but that's not hard these days) SM Chapter.

I will observe with interest a list that somehow removes the air assault, and the tanks, and manages to be interesting, mobile and competitive in Epic.
Ever the pessimist, I don't think it exists. Marines=/IG