They are that different, but I'm unconvinced that they're nessesary introductions to Epic, unless they fill a truly new niche (Like the Land Raider Redeemer).

Still, theory-hammering is fun.

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I buy every codex only to be updated about fluff and armycomposition

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So the redemer is it the same stats as the inferno gun? And still the awful range? My god its bad! (Lets lumber the Salamanders with it instead of crusaders!).

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Ok. After reading the new Codex Space Marines how about this?

Space Marine Thunderer
Type Move Armor Firefight CloseCombat
Infantry 10cm 6+ FF5+ CC6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Thunderer 60cm 1BP IgnoreCover, Disrupt
Servy Harnisch BaseContact (Assault Weapon) +1ExtraAttack Macroweapon

Space Marine Land Speeder Storm
Type Move Armor Firefight CloseCombat
Light Vehicle 35cm 4+ FF5+ CC6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ -
Notes: Scout, Transport (may carry one Scout unit), Formations which at least one Land Speeder Storm place one Blastmarker on the target formation bevore the formation carries out an assault action. This represents the Cerberus Launchers disrupting enemy lines.

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I'm all for speculating new units and the novelty factor, but please don't try to emulate the 40k game in it's awful current form.

40k has been falling exponentially from a wargame to a collectible miniatures game- with the intrinsic Codex Creep, new models having uber rules, etc in the noble quest of holding up a flailing business in a collapsing economy. Each new release is more and more shameless in it's lack of balance, and attempt to get players to shelve their existing models and buy the new novelty toys.

Next you'll be telling me Epic Formations must have Special Characters that for less pts signifincantly boost everyone in the army....shudder. "All my Tactical Formations have Marneus Calgar..."

I'd much rather Epic went it's own way in terms of balance and cohesive armies- rather than pandering to the whim of 40k and the youngsters with parent's wallets it's aimed at.

I'm all for adding the Land Speeder Storm to the Scout formation (Frankly, I'd like to see it replace the Rhino/RB options).  It's different, and it allows the Scouts to move farther and scout ahead.  Just need to talk to O-man about some 3d work.

I think the Land Raider Redeemer is a bad unit for Epic, as it loses all it's range for a (admittedly nasty) 15cm AP attack.  The Salamanders don't need to be screwed that badly, they're already underpowered for ranged weapons as it is.

Sternguard/Vanguard vets I'm less sold on in Epic, although replacing 1x missile Launcher with 2x plasma guns and FF3+ would be simple enough to do.  

Not sure about stats for the Vanguard, they aren't quite as beefy as Worldeaters.  Maybe just Power Weapons (Macro-weapon, Extra Attack (+1), just like the Terminator statline).  First Strike is too much.

The other question is how to fit them into the army:  As a single-unit upgrade to a Formation, or as a formation-wide upgrade.  I can make arguments either way.  For example, the Ultramarines First Company has ~80 suits of terminator armor, and 100 members.  The (epic) makeup could be something like 3x Terminator Formations (20 Marines each), a unit of Sternguard vets (20-30 Marines), and a unit of Vanguard vets (20 Marines).  That's IF you put all the veterans in one place (as formation upgrades).  I think a Chapter would be better served by spreading the veterans out (so they'd be a unit upgrade).

The answer is which works better in-game:  No veteran Marines in power armor, veteran Marines as a unit upgrade, or veteran Marines as a Formation upgrade?

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I too see little point in adding these new units to the core marine list. They'll fit nicely in some varient lists of course.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Well, the LS Storm actually can have either the Heavy Bolter or Multimelta, and has another piece of gear (Haven't bought the new codex yet, need to doublecheck) that acts sorta like a claymore panel.  It should have a decent FF (FF5+, like most vehicles).

I could certainly see the Vanguard vets and LS Storm getting added for the Raven Guard list, and Sternguard getting added for either Sallies or IFists.

I'm just sharing an opinion at this point, since neither one of my Marine armies can use any of these new units (Dark Angels and Space Wolves).

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

Yep. New units only for variant lists. The core list is good as is.

Vanguard and Land Speeder Storm is see for RavenGuard.
Sternguard would be excellent in an CrimsonFists army.
Land Raider Redeemer would fit into BloodAngels and Salamanders (NOT replacing the standart Land Raider).
Thunderer would be usable in an ImperialFists list.

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Hey folks,

A quick contribution on the Redeemer & Thunderfire difficulties.

Space Marine Thunderfire
Type Move Armor Firefight CloseCombat
Infantry 10cm 6+ FF5+ CC6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Thunderer 60cm 1BP IgnoreCover, Disrupt

That is: as you had it before but with no MW attack. Makes it a useful addition, not 'conflicting' and that is essentially worthwhile as a unit. Doesn't end up as 'too expensive' either due to the lack of the MW attack. My thinking is a straight upgrade of 'add 2 Thunderfires' to a formation. They can be DPd, but can't ride in transports. Simple!

With the redeemer, how about affording it the 'optional' Multimelta in an effort to bring it up-to-speed (err...) with it's contemporaries?

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As theoryhammer is quite fun, newest marine codex is worst thing gw has published so far. (game balance, marine desing principles, incoherency between fluff and new toys...) Please don't, they are not even worth for sub-lists.

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