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Terminators and transport

 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:24 am 
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I was wondering how mnay land raiders a Terminator formation has to take (if it choose to take thenm).  I assume they can choose to take only one, since the upgrade is 1-4 landraiders, and the transporter rule is only used for formations that take rhinos.

I'm asking becuase (in a moment of madness) I thought that the following could be a decent garrison formation

Terminators with 2 shooty dreads and a landraider.

this give a formation with 7 units, 5 of which have 4+RA and the other two can hide behind the raider and lots of shooting (for marines)
8 assault cannons
1 twin linked heavy bolter
2 missile launchers
3 twinlinked las cannons

They wont do much, but they will be able to hold the objective and throw of most things that come their way.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:14 am 
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A quick look through the rules again shows no reason why you couldn't do this - and it would get some firepower into range of the enemy nice and early. The only drawback is at 525 pts it could easily be your BTS goal, and leaving it sat out on it's own for a turn or two would make it very tempting. If your opponent sends all his MW your way you could lose BTS and the objective they were covering very quickly.

Still, might make nice bait for a follow-up air assault.
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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:51 pm 
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Huh...never thought of that.  Risky putting that many points out there unsupported...but...then again, forcing the enemy to be somewhere you want him to be could be useful... :)

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:57 pm 
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One of my friends used Termies, Dreads and a Vindicator as a garrison.  It was a darn hard formation.  IIRC, it held off a Big Ork Warband until I brought in a second, mechanized warband to clear them out.  I won handily at that point but it obviously took the commitment of a lot more points of Orks than the Termies and there were other SM formations waiting to counterattack afterwards.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:46 pm 
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Damned frustrating when you can't even read whos post you are answering!  :angry:
I just can't read the black on dark grey!

Anyway.  A good use for Vindicators and less costly that Landraiders.

Being "old school", I like my Land Raiders and the rest are just fill ins.  There is no reason why a formation of vehicles with transport shouldn't be able to pick up another. (but that battle is on going). Way back when.. Land Raiders could cary two Terminators. :p  :cool:

I see nothing to prevent the use one upgrade but as someone said, it makes th unit expensive.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:29 pm 
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(gary_clark1946 @ Nov. 15 2006,16:46)
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There is no reason why a formation of vehicles with transport shouldn't be able to pick up another. (but that battle is on going).

There are legion potential problems with it.  It's been debated several times both on here and on the SG boards.  Here's a clip from the last round about Land Raiders at SG:

I actually like the idea of WEs transporting as a formation rather than per-WE. The problem with it is that it effectively turns all WE transport formations into Commanders.

Had a couple formations beaten up? Just pile them into a WE and presto! You combined them into a single formation. On the flip side, you can start with a bunch of small formations loaded for a mega-assault, then after the assault combine them back together or split up to expand your activation count as needed. Since BMs from assaults are only placed on the formations that actually take damage, you can plan the assault so that most of the resulting "fragment" formations come out of the assault with no BMs. The obvious tactic would be to recombine the suppressed formations to resist breaking and split off unsuppressed formations for activation count.

The problem came to the forefront in the Ork list because they could take a Warband w/ extra Battleforts and freely mix and match formations, allowing an absurd amount of tactical flexibility. Hence, the fortress restriction for Orks.

One similar issue that comes to mind is CSM LRs because they can attach them to a normal formation like Orks could. You could have a retinue with LRs attached, loaded with Forlorn Hope formations that would function like Orks with Forts. Or, garrison troops on OW for area denial, then have the retinue with LRs come up behind them and pick them up. They're already half way across the board, so they should be positioned for a huge combined assault.

SMs could do something similar with an LC loaded with LRs and small formations. With LR Crusaders' 3 transport capacity the options for a BT list would expand.


WEs transporting as formations might not be a problem in general but I'm not willing to assume that it won't. I think quite a bit of playtesting is in order before anyone can confidently say that it doesn't allow abuse, not to mention ironing out issues like what to do with BMs.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:13 pm 
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We do it, as in SM1 and it is a bit more realistic, (I commanded a Mech Co. with M113s, [Rhino Proxies !] so humor me !).  Transports are not part of the Infantry Formation (as in SM2, etc.) once they dismount.  The Land Raiders or Rhinos, Falcons, etc. function independently ... I know ... I know ... in SM2 and E:A that creates a multitude of problems and sins !  But we don't follow E:A to the letter.  And we normally Teleport our Terminators ... But as always ... DWWFY !  :D

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:49 am 
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The biggest difference between a Rhino and an M113 is that an M113 is smaller and looks better!

For one or two specific WEs I can see the point of allowing a change to the transport rule (THawk Transports are nearly useless without it, for example), but there's a LOT of problems with a blanket allowance.  Also, what happens in RL™ may or may not be balanced for gameplay.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:25 am 
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Yes, I like the old M113 ... maybe that's why I have so many Rhinos and their conversions !  I clearly understand, about RL vs. gaming ... But the SM2 rule where the Rhinos had to follow the Infantry around was a Big No Go for us/me !  As were most of the SM2 rules.  So that's why we kept much of the (modified) SM1 rules/system ...  As I said after commanding a Mech Co., I just couldn't deal with what I saw was very unrealistic !  But that's me; always DWWFY !  :D

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Thanks for all the rpelies, it looks like it could be a valid, if expensive tactic.  One to use every now and then, but not to be trusted overly so.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:39 pm 
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The biggest difference between a Rhino and an M113 is that an M113 is smaller and looks better!


Well of course the M113 is smaller, it is hauling 10 rather large super-human space marines in power armor, with room to do jumping jacks, instead of 9(?) regular soldiers in a rather cramped fashion.

As I said after commanding a Mech Co., I just couldn't deal with what I saw was very unrealistic !

Well Legion 4, what would you have your M113's do once you dismounted your troops?  I know they were pretty much battlefield taxis, but would they go back a bit and hang out, or would they stay put?  Could whatever they did be represented in the game somehow?

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:37 pm 
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I know all the old arguments. I have followed them and still think the given reasons are pure crap (IMHO). Vehicles are attached to a unit not part of it. It is the worst rule in the entire Epic history as far as |I am concerned. Luckily I am not a torney player so I kiss it off.

My Landraiders still carry two Terminators. :)

I do like a lot about EA but the idiotic (only my opinion) restrictions really detract from it. I much prefer NetEpic. However, at times I use old org for EA games.

Don't scream. I gave up the argument long ago. I know it is fantasy but that just makes the restrictions seam more crazy.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:43 pm 
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Yep, My Squads on any "business" day, would range between 11 Authorized to 5 or 6 or less !   And even though my unit got fitness awards - we were not as Big as SMs !  LOL !  :D     And by making transports separate dets. after dismounting Grunts is simple.  1) They would stay put in a covered/concealed position (CCP), 2) move back to a (CCP) rally point (RP), 3) Move to a Support by Fire position/flanking fire (we had M2s and Rhinos have 2 Bolters (SM1), 4) Etc., etc. ... by making them a separately det. they can do all these things and more. Without following the Troops around like a dog on a leash.  Regardless, Infantry does it's job dismounted ... I was known for dismounting often. I was a Rifle Plt. Ldr in the 101 before I commanded a Mech Co., so I knew the value of "boots on the ground".  To keep up with a fast armored advance you must stay mounted. But Infantry does is best work on the ground.  If you dismount too soon you lose your mobility and  marginal (?) protection; you dismount too late and you become a lucrative target ... So like I said, by making Trans a sep. det., you can do more and increase survivability (dispersion) ... But DWWFY !  :D  And as I said we, don't play E:A "straight out of the box" !  We have been using unit activation since SM1 ... I added that rule in our first game ! :D

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:44 pm 
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(gary_clark1946 @ Nov. 16 2006,16:37)
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I have followed them and still think the given reasons are pure crap (IMHO).

Obviously, you can play it however you want.  It apparently works for you because you know it won't be abused.

My only point is that you can't base an open game system on the assumption that no one else will take advantage of the loopholes, especially when the potential abuses are proven and documented.

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 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:45 pm 
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Part of the problem with letting Rhinos run around seperately in Epic is that they are damn near worthless by themselves.  With the M113 and the Ma Deuce it mounted you at least had a decent fire support platform for the squad it carried.  (Depending on terrain and situation...)  With the "withering firepower" of 2 bolters on the Rhino you could do more damage running troops over than by shooting at them!  I thought it was funny that the best the Space Marines could do to make the Rhino more like a real APC was to allow a Storm Bolter upgrade.  Wow!  Now you can bounce bolter shells off of heavy armor at a higher rate of fire!

I'm surprised nobody has come up with the upgrade to make the Rhino more like a M113 - for so many points you get a Heavy Bolter mounted on a Rhino.  Do that and then you'd have a real reason for the Rhinos to tag along.

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