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Imperial Fists

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:51 pm 
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It's a bit weird but I think it captures the feel pretty well, it seemed the most elegant way of representing a fortress for the IF to defend, it also gives the opposing player a reason to attack the fortress and provides a narrative game-within-a-game, it also does count as cover when destroyed

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:24 am 
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Did a playtest of the IF against Black Legion on Wednesday. I didn't do a blow-by-blow report, but recorded the important points of the battle and the most relevant Fist-specific playtest points. For this game, I decided to keep my stuff mobile, giving everything rhinos. This meant that the fortifications I did purchase (1 set) would be garrisoned by scouts. I took assault terminators again, and tried out the 6-strong whirlwind formation. On to the lists:

Black Legion (2014 NetEA approved) 3000 points
Retinue, rhinos, 315
Retinue, rhinos, 315
Retinue, SC, 4 landraiders, 625 (BTS)
Defilers, 275
Havocs, rhinos, 225
Havocs, rhinos, 225
Chosen, rhinos, 145
2 decimators, 450
Hell talons, 225
He'll blades, 200

Imperial fists, 3000 points
Tactical, rhinos, SC, hunter, 450
Tactical, rhinos, 275
Devastators, rhinos, 225
Scouts, rhinos, 150
Scouts, rhinos, 150
Assault terminators, chaplain, 375
Whirlwinds, +2 whirlwinds, 425
Land speeder, typhoon, 225
Predator annilator, hunter, 325
Thunderbolts, 175
Thunderbolts, 175
Bunkers and minefield, 50

This time I put the minefield as far forward in front of the BL T&H objective as I could, but it was awfully close to mid board. In any case, I used the field works to seal off the middle of my half, garrisoned the bunkers with scouts, and planned on moving up the more durable tacticals to beef up the garrison and free up the scouts for other things (see pic 1).

Turn 1 BL got strategy, and went after my whirlwinds with the hell talons. They took out 2, and I was reduced to a regular WW fm right off the bat. I only had 3bp for turn 1, but was back at 4bp in subsequent turns. So the more durable fm was worth the price. Their placement was ideal as I was able to reach anything that got near my defense line. Dave, who was observing the game, mentioned that having short ranged artillery only was a bit in-siege-ey. Since there's legion basilisks in 30k now, perhaps a fm of those would be appropriate for this list? I liked the idea, but just a thought.

Other turn 1 notes: the land speeders got a lot of attention over the course of the game. They were down to one unit but still managed to fly around being annoying. The BL BTS doubled up to prepare for crossing my defense line turn two, but I managed to kill 3 out of 4 LR with my preds. Bad rolls for saves were a notable characteristic of the game, probably because we were both using my dice. At the end of turn 1, BL had doubled up all the retinues, and I had responded by targeting rhinos to hurt their mobility for future turns.

Turn 2: I teleported the termies to the top of the hill, and won strategy. Already prepped due to the loss of the land raiders, the BTS was vulnerable. Hitting on 2s, I hit a lot and there were very few saves. I lost one unit in return and the termies got my BTS through hack downs in resolution. Plus they were still at 75% strength, and in good position in the middle of the board.

Turn 3: the BL win strategy, and kill my devs with BP.
Turn 4: the decimators try to root my tacticals out of the bunkers (which they do with that nasty IC MW Barrage), but put themselves within 15 cm of the termies. The termies kill one of the WEs in the ensuing engagement and the other one breaks. So, if positioning is good, the teleporting terminators can be quite useful. I think they are a good way to shore up the defenses: the objective attracts the opponent to the defenses, he attacks, and the termies pop in to disrupt the attack. If they're still around (both the termies and the enemy) in subsequent turns, that cycle repeats itself, ideally.

The game ended in turn 4, IF won 2-0 with DTF and BTS. The BL was able to out maneuver the IF on turn 3 and break some of the maneuver units the IF could have used to gain other victory conditions. So the termie assault proved to be vital in getting BTS.

Question on the mines: does moving cautiously negate the dangerous terrain test for crossing a minefield, as with other dangerous terrain? How about walker? Seems like a sentinel shouldn't be able to avoid mines as well as the IF who laid them.


Attachments:
File comment: Pic 3 center board at game start
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File comment: Pic 2 BL deployment
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File comment: Pic 1, IF deployment. Bunkers and minefield center right
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 939.6 KiB | Viewed 3418 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:37 am 
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Thanks for the report :) appreciate the effort! I'm just off to bed but have a few thoughts which I'll share tomorrow

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:22 pm 
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This post isn't related to playtesting. Was just wondering what I should pick up next. I'm looking to go somewhat armor heavy with my Imperial Fists. So far I have -

5 Lanspeeder Tornadoes
4 Predator Annihilators
4 Whirlwinds
4 Land Raiders
1 Fellblade

Was thinking about picking up 4 Vindicators, frankly because they look cool and seem to fit in a seige list, but, I am worried about their short range. Would I be better served by four more Predators? Or something else? Maybe a couple more Whirlwinds? Suggestions for next purchases welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:59 pm 
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I'd have 4 pred destructors ready just on principle.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:03 pm 
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if you're building the list around lots of armour, I think a formation of 6 vindicators would be a good addition, great for shelling infantry formations trying to hide in your bunkers.... I don't think you could go too far wrong really, I've never used whirlwinds myself but they can be solid if used well

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:51 pm 
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Sorry, hope I am not thread hijacking here, but what is the point of Predator Destructors in Space Marine lists? I've sort of never understood. This is not a rhetorical question; I genuinely am curious. It just seems to me that the main thing marines are lacking is ant-tank, and that they have the tools to deal with infantry in spades with their assault capability and missile launchers. Why would I take a unit of Pred Destructors over, say, a unit of Vindicators?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:23 pm 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Sorry, hope I am not thread hijacking here, but what is the point of Predator Destructors in Space Marine lists? I've sort of never understood. This is not a rhetorical question; I genuinely am curious. It just seems to me that the main thing marines are lacking is ant-tank, and that they have the tools to deal with infantry in spades with their assault capability and missile launchers. Why would I take a unit of Pred Destructors over, say, a unit of Vindicators?


With a Tac unit (all 6 stands alive) having 6 AP shots and 4x PD's having 12 shots, I like em for softening a target before my advance but even more so for culling an advance that is advancing on me (one word: "nids!")

Set the PDs up in enfilade firing position to a nids advance towards something more juicy and you are going to get a lot of casualties.

Beyond that ... hmm .... /shrugs

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:19 am 
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Yeah very useful against ork and Nids. The also are a nice supporting unit to space marine bikers. So they have their place, just a place that isn't as often needed as Annihilators.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:45 am 
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o hai der, Centurions - http://www.onslaughtmini.com/87-sisterh ... order.html

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:35 pm 
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just wanted to pop in and apologise for dropping the ball a little with development here, just need to get the next few tournaments out of the way, then it's clear until october, planning on doing a lot of testing during the summer months, and pushing out a new list version with new ideas based on discussion here

thanks for your patience!

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:49 pm 
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so thinking some more about the list, and having acquired rather a lot of AT-era, pre-heresy style minis of late, what are people's thoughts about adding stuff like marine-crewed rapiers and thudd guns to the list? they synergise pretty well with the siege-warfare gameplay, and the thudd guns will give you the ability to garrison forward and hit your opponent's deployment zone, while the rapiers are a cheap way to boost formation sizes and give a bit of AT firepower

I'm also leaning towards including the battle barge for a T3 counterstrike drop option, although with stronger limits on what can drop, to ensure players don't just go for the all-drop T3 army

I'm feeling really hamstrung by sticking closely to the codex stuff, so I'm looking to branch out and get people sharing ideas on how to make the list more enjoyable, playtesting to date has shown that the list can be really boring to use, how can we avoid the list becoming yellow siegemasters?

Finally what are people's thoughts on including non-standard weapon loadouts for warlords and reavers? I wouldn't give options within the list, but a more siege-y set of weapons such as quake cannons or inferno guns might be a better fit, thematically to the list

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:27 pm 
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I'm all for Thudd guns, rapiers and the like.

The BB is fine provided there's some strong limitations on what's available but honestly I don't think it's really fitting the theme.

The alternate weapons for the titan are nice to give variation from the typical but I wouldn't have options, just alternative loadouts.

I personally think the problem lies in the fortifications themselves. I've been leaning towards actually making them fearless W/Es with embarked troops being able to FF from them.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:47 pm 
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okay been thinking more on this and I'm intending to put out v0.3 this week when I find time

going to add thudd guns and rapiers as upgrades to formations, also going to make centurions an upgrade for assaults/devs (may just make them a separate formation for the purposes of upgrades like land raiders....)

additionally I think I want to add something along the lines of this to the 'masters of siege' special rule:

"all Imperial Fists tactical, devastator, assault and scout units gain a 5+ invulnerable save in addition to the cover save provided by fortifications purchased as part of the army, in addition formations with at least one stand within a fortification remove an extra blast marker when rallying or regrouping"

gives them increased survivability against massed AP shooting and engagements, also prevents MW/IC removing all bonuses from fortifications.... I'm hoping this change will really boost how tough the marines are to shift in defence as right now they're pretty weak....

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:16 pm 
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The bonus to BM removal is a great idea. I'm less enthused about the implementation of the save vs the net effect of than the net effects of the save itself. Perhaps instead of an army wide rule it'd be more elegant to make the bunkers WE that allow the embarked units to shoot and fire from (similar to the whole Stormlord firing platform). I don't think trench systems should give an IS5+ however.

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