Which is half my point. The Codex Astartes list is good as it is, leave it alone.

Nice to hear Dobbsy's been thinking about it. That means I won't have to worry about having to lead the development

I'll help test and come up with bad ideas of course.

For a starting point my Full Codex Space Marine Army List draft could be used.

Just delete Navy and Titans and superfluous units. Storm Talon and Storm Eagle needs to be added though.

Read the Specia lRules if you wonder why the formations are so small.

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Is pretty gnarly overpowered.

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It's just a draft/starting point.

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my thoughts too..... as well as being overly complicated

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Well interest and priority are two separate axes. Is this something I'm interested in? YES. Is there and assload of stuff to finish first, YES.

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6 kinds of dreads and 6 kinds of land raiders?!?!?!?

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How about presenting it as more limited codex. The 40k Codex: Space Marine is designed to represent every chapter that is not Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Black Templars and their successors.

Conversely specific lists exist in epic for Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Siege, Salamanders, White Scars and their successors. The 40k codex is a catch all that encompass units designed for the above lists.

How about writing an 'Ultramarine' list to pick up a few units in exchange for the loss of the allies. Certain 40k codex items could be ignored, scout bikers, for sample, may be better in the white scars list, siege dreads in the Imperial Fist list etc. You would not need 6 kinds of land raider if some are only in the 40k codex to allow thou to make a salamander list etc.

We could drop the allies and landing craft and replace with a transporter, storm talon, thunderfire and a once only upgrade to make a tac or assault unit sternguard or vanguard?

You could then have a document to explain the set up. It could start like this...

**********

Epic Armageddon Space Marine Lists.

The forces of the Adeptus Astartes share a common heritage and are blessed with some of the most advanced technology known to the Imperium. The stipulations laid down in the Codex Astartes and adhered to by the majority of chapters impose some uniformity amongst these many organisations. Yet the nature of their primogenitor, the technology they have encountered and the passing of ten millennia have resulted in differences of organisation and equipment between the chapters.

Much like the various codices of Warhammer 40,000, the army lists developed by games workshop and the broader community for the Epic Armageddon system allow players to tailor their armies to represent these different chapters.

Space Marines of the Armageddon Wars.
This list represents the forces committed by a number of Space Marine Chapters to the 3rd war on Armageddon, as well as the Titan Legion and Navy Alice's upon whose they could call. Broadly speaking this list represents equipment and formations that even the most poorly equipped Astartes Chapter could commit to battle. It is also a well balanced rule set with easily available models which makes it ideal for new players and competitive tournament use.

Games workshop and community development have, however, produced a number of other lists that can be used to represent the more obscure and specialist forces available to some chapters. All the following lists are based upon this core document and the most obvious additions are listed below.


Ultramarines
Ultramarines, Crimson fists, Howling Griffons...

This list is intended to represent the Ultarmarine chapter, their decedents and any chapter that follows the teachings of their Primarch, Robute Guillumain. In this task it is broadly similar to the modern Codex: Space Marine books from the Warhammer 40,000 gaming system and includes some newer formations not available in the previous list. Where it differs from that volume is that it's scope is not so broad, with many more specialist chapters, such as the White Scars, the Salamanders and the Scions of Iron having their own lists. As a result Codex units such as siege Dreadnoughts and Land Raider Promethius' are not found within this list, nor are the navy and Titan support featured above.


Blood Angels
Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Lamentets, Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, Angels Vermillion.

This list is intended to represent the Blood Angels and their successors. These most ferocious of warriors have shunned many of the vehicles and formations utilised by their codex brethren, but, in turn, field mysterious units and technological marvels known only to themselves. In essence this list mirrors the feel of the recent Codex: Blood Angels, adding Death Companies, Storm Ravens and Furisio Dreadnoughts to the Armageddon list, at the cost of...

Raven Guard
Black Guard, Revilers, Raptors

Etc etc

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Remember, there's nothing requiring you to use Blood Angels or successors with the BA list. We need to start stressing this a bit more for no other reason than it will cut down on extraneous [insert name of chapter] Lists that tend to pop up with nothing distinguishing them in play style (I hold the same is true in the Guard lists as well- I don't know enough of Eldar and Chaos to speak). Otherwise totally dig having a short introductory blurb in each list (even a sentence or 2 is enough) explaining the what/why of a list. I advocated as much in the Epic Lagging Behind thread last week.

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I'd like to get away from chapter-specific lists, actually. I think it's good if you can use several lists with your collection of miniatures. Hence theming lists after campaigns and playstyles rather than chapters.

Keep the existing lists - they can be the type of force the chapter is famous for, but it's not the only way.

Well the lists certainly need to be split up, there are far too many units in the myths for one list any more. Take away the chapter names and replace with archetypes and you'll just end up with 'Marine with flames', 'Seige army Marines', 'Tank Army Marines', 'Biker Marines', 'Assault heavy marines', is that not a little dull? It the fiction what seperates the chapters and the equipment they choose are the legions they decend from. Any other way if splitting the myriad units up seems artificial.

Personally I'd rather have an Imperial Fist list, but with a rider that it could be used for any marine siege list and that the white scars list could be used to represent the Fists reserve company in bikes.

The problem for me is when you mix in the various chapter special rules. A bike-focused list is very cool. A terminator list is awesome. When all the terminators in that list are fearless because it's based on the Deathwing it starts getting weird. When you have to bring an emperor's champion and leave devastators and scouts at home if you want to play a marine list that's designed without titans it gets frustrating.

Well one of my brain-storm hopes/thoughts had wandered to a sort of almost-all-encompassing abstraction list that would use one list for all the lists (other than non-codex types) and just slot special rules accordingly for each individual Chapter. It would essentially be usable for all SM armies barring those like Space Wolves or any lists with very individual design types. Once the unit types were arranged it would just be a matter of connecting the Special Rules to the list. But.. I've yet to get anywhere near sorting through unit types etc. and it's mainly just a brainstorm as of yet.

Of course, some will argue you can already do what I outlined above using the current Codex list... but it's still something I'd like to explore.

I haven't been following 40K but is there a new SM Codex due in the future then?

It's a new edition of 40k, no matter the rumour lockdown there'll be a space marine codex being worked on for release relatively soon.

Black Templars & Eldar should be due sooner(they're much older) but that hasn't stopped them in the past.