Except it allows them to do other things, while there is nothing particularly requiring them to actually engage in CC.

Also:

"The Blood Angels bear the brunt of the close-quarters fighting, chiefly because only the overcharged engines of their Lucifer-class Rhinos can hope to keep pace with the roaming convoys of Ork Trukks and Battlewagons." p 16, C:BA 5e.

Note how Ork vehicles are apparently about the same speed. Feel free to look up the speed of Ork vehicles.



As is your personal opinion that only the current codex matters, unless it doesn't.

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Which would only serve to state once again that "Baal" Rhinos are categorically faster than normal Rhinos.


Well your opinion appears to be to largely ignore the current codex because you think it is "stupid".

*shrug*

I'll be posting v2.09 "final" tonight.

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I wouldn't call it a bad thing. I would probably agree that it is bad more often than not except that the BA player knows this and can plan around it by engineering situations where the auto-Engage is good. Really, I think until it's tried that it's impossible to say whether it nets out positive or negative.

E&C:


Except it would also serve to state that Ork vehicles are apparently faster than normal Rhinos (which they are not in Epic) and that BA Rhinos are not significantly faster than Ork vehicles. Keeping pace is not catching. It's, well, keeping pace. They're the only ones who could keep up with the Orks - who go 30cm. The difference between them and ordinary Rhinos is evidently not particularly larger than that between Orks and ordinary Rhinos - and Orks and ordinary Rhinos are the same speed.



Then you've evidently missed the point.

It is:

1) Ignore that part of the Codex because it is stupid (as-in inconsistent with logical behavior even within the 40K universe, not just silly).

2) Because we don't have any particular basis for how much faster they are other than the very abstract vehicle movement rules on offer

3) Because it's inconsistent with previous background (wherein those engines were unreliable)

4) Because we don't have any basis for whether or not the increased speed would even matter in Epic since it would also logically result in increased wear and tear and damage to the vehicle (the chassis is not mentioned as being correspondingly strengthened, nor is the Rhino noticeably tougher)

5) Because 35cm movement speed is reserved for the fastest of the fast or most maneuverable vehicles in Epic (all of which have Skimmer except the one that has an Ork Mekboy pilot and likely rocket boosters).

6) Because generally increased speed doesn't fit with the 'feel' of the Blood Angels, who are all about reaching CC.

7) Because the people defending it seem divided on whether or not it's even useful (Rug says yes, you and Neal say no). If it is useful, perhaps the list designer should know that? If it isn't, its inclusion is questionable.

8 ) Because it unreasonably makes another Chapter better at something without any particular drawbacks (this is an objection to it in the background, not in the list).

Also, I'm the one who suggested independent Stormraven formations, remember? And pointed out the bit about Terminators. And who has been desperately throwing around ways to make Bikes fit. I think this particular part should be ignored. There is a distinction.

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Which is a personal and subjective opinion. Others (including me) think that it fits with the character of the army and the nature of the setting.


So we pick the interpretation that gives us a unique army with a genuinely different playstyle.


Imperial Guard used to use Beastman squads, and there used to be things called Chaos Squats.
The background is dead, long live the background!


Refer to my response to #2


Refer to my response to #2


I disagree.


I haven't said it's useless.


There are many drawbacks to choosing a Blood Angels army as compared to the Codex list:

- Increased points costs for Devastators.
- No Titan allies.
- No Tank formations bar the Baal Predators.
- Forced Engagement when failing activations (May never fail an activation and choose to roll to remove BM's!).
- Assault Marine formations aren't of optimum size to double-up with other formations in Thunderhawks.

Those are respectable and considerable drawbacks.

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Last I checked, both of those things are available in NetEA lists (or someone's working on one, at least).

The community does not appear concentrated around the latest codex for a particular faction. They appear to be somewhat spread out in background preference.

Whether this is a strength or not is, of course, open to question.

I still think having some form of equivalent of overcharged engines (even on everything) could be more easily adjusted to encourage any particular behavior that is desired (just for the record. In case someone missed it all the other times).



Um...

The answer to "EPIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!" isn't "it'll be fun and unique!" At least, I hadn't thought it was...

Fun and unique is cool, and all, but breaking Epic conventions is generally frowned upon. At least, such is my impression.



Er, your response to nealhunt's assertion that it likely wouldn't even make much difference was "QFT".

Nuance has not (yet) been expressed in this position.



"(this is an objection to it in the background, not in the list)"

The background. It's blatant Mary-Sueing, like, well, almost everything the Ultramarines ever do. It's the Chapter being arbitrarily better. I'm not a fan of such.

I agree - the list has some drawbacks (though I'd argue that some of them are rather more break-even propositions).

You don't have to agree with my objections, of course. But there's more to them than "it's stupid".

In any case, this will all come out in the wash. Eventually. About when were you figuring on the list being up (GMT), since I has no idea what tonight is where you are.

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Only the latter, AFAIK, and they beauty of the NetEA system is that nobody's forcing me to play it... just as nobody's forcing you to use this Blood Angels list if you don't like it.

We're not breaking any conventions. We're just making intepretations.


"Not a great deal" and "nothing at all" are different concepts.


That would be why I had us brainstorm to make the "Curse" a great drawback then?
Of course not, I'm well aware of Mary-Sue and her seductive ways.


It ain't arbitrary. Arbitrary would be if I said "Well I think all Blood Angels should have Firefight 3+", apropos of nothing.


I'm in the UK... and you will be able to continue your objections in a new thread in about an hour.

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That's a little debatable. People proposing alternate lists generally are informed that there already is one in existence. I don't have to use this BA list, but finding another might be tricky. Like it or not, this is going to end up being the BA list in the minds of many.



I'd disagree, but that's the beauty of conventions. And the evil of them, of course.



In THE BACKGROUND. The fluff. The fiction.

You're not responsible for the background. It is not anything you did. However, the Lucifer Engines in the fluff are pretty good examples of arbitrary superiority for the sake of trying to make the Chapter 'cooler'.

Bad writing, not bad design. You hold no responsibility, except possibly for poor taste in writing.



Just to be clear - not you. Matt Ward. Not rules. Writing. We're not talking about your arbitrariness right now.



Hey. I might like it.

I might!

And my agreements can be lengthy, too. I'm nothing if not multi-talented.

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Yes but it won't be the Angels Encarmine list. Or the Flesh Tearers list. Etc.


And to reiterate for the tenth time, unlike you I don't think the background for their faster engines is "stupid", I think it's perfectly inline with the setting. The 40k setting is full of silly and contradictory things.

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Good point.



I know that. However, you appeared to be trying to defend yourself from an accusation that the execution of the Lucifer Engines you have chosen was Mary-Suing. Which was not my intent. I was talking about the background, not the list itself. The background is arbitrary. The list is not.

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It's inline with how GW develops their armies.

They pick a very simple theme such as "humans with lots of tanks" or "speedy vampires" or "wolf-loving vikings" or "magical space elves" or "crusading knights in black", and run with it.

So Blood Angels are "speedy vampires", and everything about their background and rules is then constructed to serve that. Remember to add a dash of "entropy", as that's a core theme of everything in the 40k setting, and you're done.

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Finally had time to mull over this.

Seems like a nice concept, but in practice it would mean nobody would ever take Devastators, I think.

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