Well Neal started it off over on the BA thread.

Which was or wasn't agreed by people, so how about revisiting an old Epic topic and going over the various options? I've structured them in the following fashion stealing all of Neals words in the process. Codex for methods that could be reasonably be done by any chapter, then the ones that are pretty specific to that chapter and its brothers and finally those 2nd wave chaps everyone loves so much

Codex Legions
Ultramarines
The book list plus EA changes.
Imperial Fists
Siege options, mostly less  aerospace and no pod (explanation that kind of siegebreaker army is the normal marine list) with forgeworld ground units to beef them up and maybe fortifications.
Raven Guard
Guerrilla tactics and a direct emphasis on assault marines, manifesting in Assault formations with lots of options so they can be customized for several roles (almost like Tacs in codex), scouts and planetfall tactics

Unique Legions
Blood Angels
CC-oriented, manifesting in better support for Assault formations, Assault option for Tacticals, Death company, and fast assault support vehicles (i.e. armor integrated into the infantry rather than separate).
Dark Angels
Codex, with stronger elites (Ravenwing, Deathwing, Commanders) and plasma
Salamanders
Heat-theme weapons and heavier armor, lack of speed, FF tactics
Space Wolves
Larger formations, lack of higher tech, assault emphasis
White Scars
Bikes and speed tactics

Subsequent Chapters
Scions of Iron
Tanks
Black Templars
Neophytes/infantry horde, lack of support, horde tactics

Odd one out, Iron hands. I have a neat list for these chaps making them an ultra conservative bunch of wannaby techies, largely because I thought it good and the gw fluff is awful (lost gear in one battle 10,000 years ago and despite being best mates with the AM have never resupplied and clearly never heard of a strategic reserve either). However this is to much for some and I haven't a clue about them otherwise. So it could be a successor list or the legion, or part of the legion. Who knows.

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I would add Dark Angels to Codex marines, as far as Epic is conserned they follow codex. Their only real non-codex thing is Ravenwing. Fists and Raven Guard are lot non-codex than DA, so if they are codex marines then DA should be too.

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Yes. Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, White Scars and Iron Hands are Codex Chapters.

Only Space Wolves, Salamanders and Black Templars diverge from it in a serious way.

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I agree. In Epic scale, only the really divergent chapters should have a list of their own in my opinion. Chapters like Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are still basically codex chapters and at most should have some kind of 'if playing dark angels, bike formations get an extra dice for moving through terrain for +x points' style mandatory mini-change.

Now Space Wolves and such who couldn't care less about what some poncy Ultramarine wrote ages ago could certainly do with something different, sure. I remember seeing a Space Wolf list around here that looked pretty neat.

Not that it means they shouldn't be done for people who really really want them, since anyone can just use the generic marine list instead. I just question the real need for bunches of variant marine lists because someone can't represent their slightly more assaulty chapter simply by taking lots of assault type stuff and less tanks. And frankly, wanting different formations for tourney use shouldn't be a reason to creating a completely new list. You can still toss in six stands of assault marines with two land speeders in a friendly game, if your opponent doesn't mind.

The division was purely based around those chapters having unique units, so an Ultramarine army is unlikely to have deathwing.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

In Epic scale, only the really divergent chapters should have a list of their own in my opinion. Chapters like Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are still basically codex chapters and at most should have some kind of 'if playing dark angels, bike formations get an extra dice for moving through terrain for +x points' style mandatory mini-change.

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And you feel no compulsion to have a big book of chapter lists?

The Epic design philosophy is something for a lot of gamers that isn't obvious. The intent with the list structure is to have lots, even with only mild variations between them. Think DB whatever or the Whitescars. Once a list is balanced its locked and any new units and similar go into other lists.

It is also the excuse of course for a neat mini supplement or parts of other supplements where a splash of marine colour gets in.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I'd argue that Dark Angels should be in a separate list, as they are tactically/operationally different from the Ultrasmurfs.  Ideally, I'd like to see at least 9 separate lists for marines, one for each Legion, and more for radically different Successor Chapters like the Templars.

Let's be honest:  Wolves should have a different list than codex, White Scars and Black Templars already do have semi-official separate lists, and there's fan-lists for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists, IIRC.

If the Fists have a separate list from the Ultras (they should, since their tactical doctrines are different in the fluff, and Epic is a tactical-level game), then so should the Dark Angels, since their unique formations operate differently than Codex chapters.  Ravenwing is a cross between a light-cav scouting force and Special Operations types on bikes, and there's no Codex list build that really represents this.



This is a little OT, but is there any interest in adding Epic versions of the Apocalypse datasheets to the lists?

I'm thinking the Deathknell orbital assault by termies, and/or the Deathwing Redemption Force out of Apocalypse:  Reload, at least for Marines.

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Well, obviously, I like the general breakdown in Chris's first post.  I'm willing to adjust the Raven Guard and BA versions a bit so the BA become the assault marine focused list and RG can focus on Drop Pods and Scouts.

That said, hena's the NetEA SM Champion.  It will be his call (at least as far as NetEA goes).

==

Lion:  Black Legion has done up most of the Apoc sheets.  For the most part the sheets would just be single formations, some of which make sense in Epic and a few of which don't.  Some of them are effectively in the game already, like the IG arty co and the CSM Termie formation and a few of them diverge to the point they aren't compatable, like the DC2 daemon engines.

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Just because it's Hena's call doesn't mean that we can't make a good case for each Legion to have their own list.  Just need to develop/show the niche that each Chapter fits into, then get a list written.

I prefer the image of Raven Guard as the super-sneaky guys, like Marine Force Recon or USArmy Special Forces.  Save the 'blood for the blood god... err I mean blood for the Emperor and Sanguinius!" stuff for the BAs.  

Iron Hands in 40k are almost like a cross between Space Wolves and AdMech.  They operate in Great Companies like the Wolves, but with better gear, and more vehicles/dreads, IIRC.


Neal:  Fair enough, I mostly wanted to yoink names to try to show some commonality between Epic and Apocalypse.

Speaking of horridly overpowered formations, have you seen the 3x Skyray AA formation in Reload?  talk about frightening...

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Agreed.  And even if hena decides something you don't like, there's no Epic Police stopping anyone from playing it as they like with whatever army lists they see fit.

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