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SM Veterans - a couple of ideas |
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firestorm40k
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas  Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:58 am |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:00 pm
Posts: 2277
Location: Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Hello, I've had some ideas for Space Marine Veterans in E:A floating around in the back of my head for sometime now, and seeing as I'm not able to sleep tonight I thought I'd put them down ?
Anyway, firstly, here's the stats:
Type Speed A CC FF
Inf. ? 15cm ?4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon ?Range ?Firepower ?Notes
Bolters ?(15cm) ?Small Arms
Plasmagun 15cm AP5+/AT6+
(Miss.Launchers 45cm AP5+/AT6+ only if tank hunter ability chosen)
Notes: May select one of the following veteran skills:
- Furious Charge (gain Extra Attacks(1) & First Strike abilities)
- Infiltrators (gain Infiltrators & Scouts abilities)
- Tank Hunters (may take Missile Launcher as outlined above)
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Okay, secondly my suggestion is either to take them as a detachment of four units for 225 points (plus transport), with the following upgrades: Commander, Dreadnought, Razorbacks, Hunter, Vindicator;
or they can be added to a SM Tactical, Predator or Whirlwind formation for 60 points each for 0-2 units.
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Right, having put these ideas down, I guess the following issues need sorting out:
- are the new rules additions (abilities) fair for the points?
- should infiltrating Veterans be able to take transports?
- would they be better as a detachment, or as an upgrade?
- are they of any use to Marine armies?
Okay, thank you for reading, I hope this is useful to somebody!
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Post-script: Terminators - thinking along similar lines, I've also been pondering whether some Marine detachments should be able to take 0-2 Terminators (which would teleport in to the formation) as an upgrade for 80 points per unit. ?Is this an idea too far, however?
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ortron
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:39 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Australia
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I like the idea of giving them plasma guns. Makes them more different from a tactical squad. On the other hand i wouldn't bother with the extra skills since i don't think they have much effect at epic scale except for maybe the ability to infiltrate.
Based on 40k stats and options.. I would expect veteran to be:
as good or better than assault marines (assuming everone has terminator honours)
equal to or less in firepower to tactical squads (since they can't really take more guns and their BS is no longer any better. yes they can have tank hunters but see above comments)
armour and speed the same as tactical.
Based on those comments what would you think of your stats with a either a MW close combat attack? for the amount of power weapons the squad can have? or a melta weapon attack (say MW 5+) to make them a really hard hitting unit but only within 15cm. However i do like the plasma gun idea also.
In short, i really like your suggested profile there firestorm, however i would discount the skills because of they're complexity. I had thought of basically the same profile myself.
Not sure on costs.. i'll have to give that some thought
good work
ORTRON
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Dingodv
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:54 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:43 am
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Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
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being a veteran does mean they have proven themsleves many times in combat (more so thatn a regular space marine - these guys are special). Whilst the 40k stats may have pushed them back to similiar stats as a tactical marine I do think they should out perform them. 40k often has stats modified for balancing reasons rather than fitting with the background (why on earth would a space marine drive a rhino if it gets blown up after travelling 6" as a regular occurence???)
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:33 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
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In my opinion, we should look at the stats for Terminators - essentially veterans in better armour. Terminators get a +1 to cc and ff compared to Tactical Marines, along with extra weapons and rules. I would say that the cc and ff are due to being veterans, the extra weapons are because of their status as shock troops, and the extra rules are the Terminator armour.
Therefore, I would say that veterans should just be Tactical squads with 3+cc and ff (however, there is an argument that these stats are due to the Storm Bolters, more than the veteran ability).
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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ortron
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:15 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm
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Location: Australia
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I think were all pretty well agreed on the 3+ CC yes?
As far a firefight. I do agree with you comments CS and would like to see a distiction between them and tactical marines. However with terminators at 3+ I don't feel i could justify them having a 3+ firefight ablility. In 2nd and 3rd edition veterans are better that tactical marines by way of a better profile, but the equipment they bring to the fight, i don't think, can compare to that of a terminator squad.
My idea for makeing them somewhat better than tacs at shooting would be to give them a different weapon than a ML.
Are we all agreed on speed, armour, and close combat?
As far as unit size, i was thinking having them another 4 stand unit? similar price to devastators or higher depending on how good their firepower becomes?
Finally would people like to see them with some ablility such as sniper/scout/infiltrators to represent their better training/abliliity such as firestorm suggested?
maybe sniper would be a way to show their better shooting ablilties and battle wisdom? don't know about this....
anyhow lets keeps thinking
ORTRON
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CAL001
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:50 am |
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia
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Hi
I think that you can justify a 3+ CC but not a FF. Looking at the veteran squad in the codex. If you give them the MM with the MW ability, they would certainly stand out against Tacs. Even confere the MW ability against their FF ability. Giving them scout or infiltrate, I dont have my book in front of me allowing the formation to spread out more to define there ability to work as an independant group as well. So stats looking along these lines:
Space Marine Veterans
Type Speed Armour Firefight Close Combat
Inf 15cm 4+ 5+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols 15cm Small Arms
Chainswords/ Base Contact Assault weapon
Lightning Claws
Multi Melta 15cm MW 5+
Notes: Fearless, Scout. Multi Melta MW ability may be confered to FF attack.
Space Marine Veteran Detachment 300
4 x Space Marine Veteran Units + Transport
Upgrades
Commander, Dreadnaught, Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Veteran Space Marines.
Vet Upgrade
May add up to two veteran units for 50 Points each
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Cheers
CAL
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ortron
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:20 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Australia
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Space Marine Veterans
Type Speed Armour Firefight Close Combat
Inf 15cm 4+ 5+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols 15cm Small Arms
Chainswords/ Base Contact Assault weapon
Lightning Claws
Multi Melta 15cm MW 5+
Notes: Fearless, Scout. Multi Melta MW ability may be confered to FF attack. |
Remeber they have the option of being armed like tactical marines so they could easily have a FF of 4+
Multimetal for weapon is another good idea, i'm getting the impression CAL that you would really really like this as an option somewhere in a SM force 
I would however prefer a MW CC attack over a MW FF attack. Reasoning: looking at the codex equipment options, the squad is more likely to have a higher proportion of power weapons than other squads.
I like the idea of scout. Shows these guys are skilled combatants and able to control more area...?
Do not agree with fearless though sorry. Afterall terminators do not have this and they are essentially the same troops in better armour.
On that my suggested profile would be:
Space Marine Veterans
Type Speed Armour Firefight Close Combat
Inf 15cm 4+ 4+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols 15cm Small Arms
Powerweapons Base Contact Assault weapon MW
Multi Melta 15cm MW 5+
Notes: scout
I could happily see swaping the multimeltas for plasmaguns also..
Anyhow, i think we are slowly getting somewhere here with some agreement.
Cheers
ORTRON
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:49 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
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I would do something like this:
Space Marine Veterans
Type Speed Armour Firefight Close Combat
Inf 15cm 4+ 4+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Missile Launcher 45cm AP5+/AT6+
OR
Plasmagun 15cm AP5+/AT5+
Notes: Scout OR FirstStrike OR Lance
Detachment:
300pts 4 Units with transport.
Upgrades: Commander, LandRaiders, Razorbacks, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts.
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firestorm40k
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:25 am |
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:00 pm
Posts: 2277
Location: Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Well, it's another bout of insomnia for me so back to this idea!  Thank you everyone for responding, and for some very constructive feedback.
I must say that the idea I like best is Ortrons. I agree about MW attack, seeing Veteran squads can be equipped with 2-3 power weapons. I'd argue for giving them +1 attack to represent their being slightly better in CC than Tac marines, due to experience and wargear. Having TWO MW CC attacks might be a bit too much, however!
Also, I prefer the idea of them simply having Scouts and Infiltrators rules. I can't decide between Meltagun and Plasmagun, though. I'm in favour of dropping the Missile Launcher, but either of the afore mentioned weapons can represent tank hunting ability well enough.
Finally, what do people think about my suggestion regarding them being a seperate formation, or a 0-2 units upgrade for Tactical formations?
Thanks for looking again!
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ortron
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Post subject: SM Veterans - a couple of ideas Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:07 am |
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Location: Australia
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I think they would be best as a seperate 4 stand formation. As an upgrade it could start to get fiddly as people may not properly distinguish the troops and other problems.
If you where going to give them an extra attack they should not have a CC of 3+. Either one good hard hitting attack or 2 less likely ones. I'd be in favour of the one.
As far as weapons go. I think I like the plasma gun the best now i have thought about it some more. It hits anything on a 5+ but doesn't make them too powerful as i believe a MW attack would.
I think the idea of scout suits them, but i'm not sold on the other ideas. For comparisons sake.. look at IG stormtroopers as they would be the equivalent unit in a guard army.
The have better abilities, a power yet short ranged attack and scout. While in 40k they can infiltrate also, its not applied here as they are just as likely to be used as shock troops.
I say leave the sneaking around to the SM scouts...
Once again, i thank everyone for their thoughts. Goodwork firestorm for starting the thread.
ORTRON
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