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Harvester Engines
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=6677		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
My latest playtest game with Necrons got me thinking about the Harvester Engines, which, in my opinion, both lack some punch.

I made some suggestions in my battle report, and I'll copy them in this new thread for discussion. Here they are:

ORB

* Give its 12BP shot a 90cm range
AND/OR
* Make it a 12BP, Ignore Cover weapon

>>> Again, while 12 BP is nice, compare the Orb with an Artillery Company : for 650 points, you get either 9 BP with 240cm range OR (10 + 8) BP with Disrupt and a 300 cm range. If you take 3 Artillery Batteries of Bombards, for 750 points you have (10 + 8) BP with Ignore Cover and a 90 cm range.

Would a 90cm, 12BP, Ignore Cover weapon really be over the top for a 750 points War Engine that has no other weapon ?

ABATTOIR

* Make it 8DC
* Up its speed to 25 cm (not my preferred solution, though)

Wild suggestion

* Give the Abattoir CC2+ and FF3+. Before you start yelling at me, please keep in mind that these are the stats of the Warlord, who also has quite good ranged weapons. Would these stats be out of place on what is described as a CC monster?

To sum up, here are the profiles I'd like to see for the Harvester Engines:

AEONIC ORB
Speed 20cm
Armor 4+
CC -
FF 3+

Solar Flare
>>> 90 cm, MW3+ (TKD6)
OR
>>> 90 cm, 12 BP, Ignore Cover

DC6, etc. (the rest is unchanged).


ABATTOIR
Speed 20cm
Armor 4+
CC 2+
FF 3+

Weapons stats unchanged.

DC8, etc. (the rest is unchanged).

So, what do you think?
Author:  Honda [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
I would agree that something needs to be done about them as they do not seem to be worth the 750 pts. You can take a lot of other Necron units for 750 pts...

The other possibility for adjusting is drop the number of points that the Abbattoir costs, -100 seems extreme, but possibly -75 could be considered. -50 wouldn't seem worth the exercise.
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (Honda @ 22 April 2006 (10:45))
I would agree that something needs to be done about them as they do not seem to be worth the 750 pts. You can take a lot of other Necron units for 750 pts...

The other possibility for adjusting is drop the number of points that the Abbattoir costs, -100 seems extreme, but possibly -75 could be considered. -50 wouldn't seem worth the exercise.

I thought about lowering their points cost too, but a) I think Necrons should also get to play with cool and powerful toys just like the other armies  :)  and b) I think Corey wants to keep them as the BTS objective whenever they are included in the army... Don't know where I read that, but I think I did.  :(8:
Author:  tneva82 [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Orb: No ignore cover please. Orb has other advantages(like survivability) so IMO his guns shouldn't really be as good as IG artirelly company. Range upping might not be bad idea though.

For Abbator don't really mind the DC8 thing either. But disagree with FF3+. What guns it has that makes it so good in FF? 11(or is the 3x only for shooting attack? In that case it should read scarab swarms and in firepower 3xAP5+/AT5+) FF3+ attacks would be horrible...
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (tneva82 @ 22 April 2006 (11:24))

Orb: No ignore cover please. Orb has other advantages(like survivability) so IMO his guns shouldn't really be as good as IG artirelly company. Range upping might not be bad idea though.


Not to sound ike a spoiled child, but 12BP does seem a bit bland, doesn't it?
Also, not matter hw tough the Orb is, with only 6DC and no shields, it gets broken rather fast.

For Abbatoir don't really mind the DC8 thing either. But disagree with FF3+. What guns it has that makes it so good in FF? 11(or is the 3x only for shooting attack? In that case it should read scarab swarms and in firepower 3xAP5+/AT5+) FF3+ attacks would be horrible...


Well, a simple ork Gargant has 8 FF3+/CC3+ attacks AND 8DC and shields AND can be equipped with either good ranged weapons (Soopaguns) and/or CC weapons... and costs 100 points LESS.

A Great Gargant can fire 60cm 8BP MW barrages AND delivers 12 CC3+/FF3+ attacks AND has 12DC and a minimum of 7 shields... for a mere 100 extra points.

Now ?do you really think that 11 CC2+/FF3+ would be out of place on a 750 points, 8DC War Engine with no shields (which means it is more easily broken and, IMO, a bit more vulnerable despite its Living Metal) AND no ranged weapons (or none worth mentioning)?

What's the point of making a specialist unit (CC monster, titan killer) if other, more versatile units can do pretty much the same thing for the same cost? Right now, the Abattoir will eat any other Titan for breakfast, but a) only if it catches them in CC and b) that's pretty much the only thing it will do.

For only 495 points, a Phalanx with 3 Immortals, 2 Wraiths and 1 Pariah can deliver 11 4+ attacks and 4 3+ attacks in an assault... AND they can be teleported.



Author:  tneva82 [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Well, a simple ork Gargant has 8 FF3+/CC3+ attacks AND 8DC and shields AND can be equipped with either good ranged weapons (Soopaguns) and/or CC weapons... and costs 100 points LESS.


And is less tougher. And doesn't pack as much CC punch. Nor is as fast(which comes into play also when you concider non-assault use of speed).

But it's more of flavor thing. It doesn't carry guns. How on earth did it become one of the nastiest FF units out there then?

Bumb it in some other way if need be but IMO Abbattoir shouldn't be one of the best FF war engines out there.

Not to sound ike a spoiled child, but 12BP does seem a bit bland, doesn't it?

Maybe. But compared to art.company it has good survivability to boot. It also has ability to use TK shot if need be.

Let's take another comparison. Reaver with 3 rocket pods(BP3 variant). 60cm range and firepower of art.company. Seems pretty bland? Well that actually has proven one darned handy walking artirelly company. Bringing his survivability and fire support abilities along the line. Despite nominally packing shorter range art.company firepower.

It's not always just the weapons.



Author:  corey3750 [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (Hojyn @ 22 April 2006 (10:52))
I thought about lowering their points cost too, but a) I think Necrons should also get to play with cool and powerful toys just like the other armies ?:) ?and b) I think Corey wants to keep them as the BTS objective whenever they are included in the army... Don't know where I read that, but I think I did. ?:(8:

You are correct.  If an Harvester Engine is on the table, it should be the BTS unit.

The other reasons for it are to limit the amount of Pylons you take, and prevent you from having a C'tan at the same time you have a Harvester Engine in a 3k "tournament" game.

I do agree that the Harvester Engines need something, and I think your ideas for the Abbatoir are pretty much on target; With the exception of leaving the FF at 4+.  The Warlord may have better hit ability and more weapons, but it also costs 100 points more. :)

As for the Aeonic Orb, I can see giving it either the Extended Range, OR the Ignore Cover, but not both.

Good ideas. :)
Author:  Hojyn [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (corey3750 @ 22 April 2006 (19:56))
I do agree that the Harvester Engines need something, and I think your ideas for the Abbatoir are pretty much on target; With the exception of leaving the FF at 4+. ?The Warlord may have better hit ability and more weapons, but it also costs 100 points more. :)


Sure, but remember that outside of assaults, the Abattoir is next to useless (its only virtue being to attract a lot of firepower). Giving it a better FF value would make it generally more useful and extend it range of efficiency.

As a specialist unit, it should rule in its field of speciality, all the more so because it can do nothing else.

As for the Aeonic Orb, I can see giving it either the Extended Range, OR the Ignore Cover, but not both.


Agreed, having both would probably make it a bit too powerful... Given the choice, I'd pick Ignore Cover.



Author:  Chroma [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (corey3750 @ 22 April 2006 (19:56))
As for the Aeonic Orb, I can see giving it either the Extended Range, OR the Ignore Cover, but not both.

With a 20cm move and a 75cm range, on a double, the Orb has a "reach" of 115cm, coupled with pop-up, that's going to hit a lot of the board.  Even on a single, that range allows a shot into the enemy deployment zone and only the "first" template has to abide by range restrictions, the other two can be placed deeper into enemy territory.  

I'm failing to see how this isn't enough range.  What am I missing?  At 12BP that's placing a minimum of 3 Blast markers before even rolling to hit.
Author:  Hojyn [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Quote (Chroma @ 23 April 2006 (17:22))
With a 20cm move and a 75cm range, on a double, the Orb has a "reach" of 115cm, coupled with pop-up, that's going to hit a lot of the board. ?Even on a single, that range allows a shot into the enemy deployment zone and only the "first" template has to abide by range restrictions, the other two can be placed deeper into enemy territory. ?

I'm failing to see how this isn't enough range. ?What am I missing? ?At 12BP that's placing a minimum of 3 Blast markers before even rolling to hit.

Keep in mind that, unlike artillery, the Orb doesn't have indirect fire. Since it is usually better off behind cover, it will rarely take a Sustained Fire order, so its chances to hit are not that great : infantry on 4+, vehicles on 5+. 12BP of "real" artillery would be hitting on 3+/4+.

Now if you double, you can shoot in the enemy deployment zone on the first turn, but you'll be hitting on 5+/6+, or even 6+/7+ if firing at units in cover. If those units have even moderate saves, you'll be inflincting very few casualties.

You will be placing BMs, though, which is a good thing, but again, a 750 points war engine should do something else besides placings BMs.

I agree that more range may not be needed after all, but I do think that adding Ignore Cover would make the Orb more effective yet not overpowered. Lance, as suggested by Hena, could be nice too but it wouldn't solve what I believe is the Orb main flaw : the relative inability to actually inflict damage (I'm of course not talking about its TK shot, which is fine as is).
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
I think ignore cover is a bit much as it will just vapourize horde armies.

The secondary fire option is a dispersion of plasma, at least by the flavour text, so, perhaps disrupt is more in line?

Those 3 Blast markers, just from firing, are very nasty, any 3DC war engine even touched by one of the templates is now either suppressed (if in a group) or broken (if alone).  Formations of 3-5 models are in very bad shape either broken immediately or will be if they suffer a single casualty.  Add in the ability to, potentially, hit more than one formation, followed by the nearly inevitable assault of Necrons from Monoliths, it's going to spell trouble for most armies.

The ability to lay that many Blast markers at range, coupled with the option of, essentially, three Deathstrike Missile shots, shouldn't be underestimated.
Author:  corey3750 [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
I'd considered disrupt before, but when I took into account the effect of a disrupt weapon in combination with an army that's capable of not only teleportation, but brutal assaults, it seemed a bit much.

But It is true that it would make the unit much more impressive for it's cost.
Author:  Moscovian [ Mon May 15, 2006 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Harvester Engines
Corey, on an earlier thread (which seems to have vanished  :80: ) you mentioned that the Abattoir was supposed to have a 20cm movement.  Is this not the case anymore?  I noticed the newest pdf has them at 15cm.
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