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Necron list: Issues

 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:25 am 
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Shrug. By giving them a slightly different name.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:31 am 
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LOADS of changes have been made to the chaos and marine lists without them being pushed back to developmental, I really can't see how a relatively minor change to LM merits the list being pushed back to developmental for a year, it's working fine in the UK tournament scene at the moment if you need some evidence that it hasn't totally ruined the list

If you really feel strongly about list structure, balance and playstyle, abandon the necon list, leave it as it is and do no new development on it, start up 1-2 necron variant lists with the full intention that they will supersede the existing list and use them to solve the other percieved problems with the necrons

that way old gronards can keep using the old necron list as it is, and the rest of us can work with something we prefer, everyone wins...

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:33 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
But if you make a new list how would jou justify that the very same units have a different version of Living Metal?


that should be the very least concern IMO, just change the name of the rule from living metal to something similar (undying legions or some other bollocks) and draw a line under it

I fail to see how it would be a problem, I've not looked into it deeply but are the old and new style nid lists completely equivalent in special rules/abilities?

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
If you really feel strongly about list structure, balance and playstyle, abandon the necon list, leave it as it is and do no new development on it, start up 1-2 necron variant lists with the full intention that they will supersede the existing list and use them to solve the other percieved problems with the necrons


Planning to do something like this, but not exactly the same. I'll leave the Raiders list as it is after the ERC has reviewed it and focus on the Tomb World list, and see if I can't make a Necron list that's not focused on portal assaults. At the same time Borka (and BlackLegion?) will hopefully get a newstyle least at least to Developmental in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not expecting either to supercede the Raiders list, but hopefully they can be equals.


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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:52 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
LOADS of changes have been made to the chaos and marine lists without them being pushed back to developmental, ...


I would consider that a mistake on the part of the ERC for not addressing that rather than a precedent being set.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
If you really feel strongly about list structure, balance and playstyle, abandon the necon list, leave it as it is and do no new development on it, start up 1-2 necron variant lists with the full intention that they will supersede the existing list and use them to solve the other percieved problems with the necrons


Planning to do something like this, but not exactly the same. I'll leave the Raiders list as it is after the ERC has reviewed it and focus on the Tomb World list, and see if I can't make a Necron list that's not focused on portal assaults. At the same time Borka (and BlackLegion?) will hopefully get a newstyle least at least to Developmental in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not expecting either to supercede the Raiders list, but hopefully they can be equals.


With the updated Sautekh list only having one download yet i don't see it going anywhere further :D

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
LOADS of changes have been made to the chaos and marine lists without them being pushed back to developmental, ...


I would consider that a mistake on the part of the ERC for not addressing that rather than a precedent being set.


perhaps, although nobody has complained particularly loudly about it, indeed I think most feedback has been largely positive, if the ERC had flexed its collective muscles and put a stop to it, that would have been a negative step and I'm very glad it hasn't happened

precious little development seems to actually happen these days, not for the want of trying, and plenty of good people are putting plenty of effort into it, but it does seem that this kind of attitude is a real hinderance to progress

These labels are just labels, at the end of the day it's up to the players to decide which lists they want to use, or event organisers, Onyx runs fantastic events with all kinds of lists, developmental, EUK and approved NetEA and it doesn't seem like anybody really concerns themselves with it.

EUK have their own set of lists which are reviewed every few years and if you want to enter their events, use their lists.... I know the reason for the ERC existing and I support it wholeheartedly, but I'm not sure I agree with you, I think ACs should have a good deal of leeway to take lists in whatever direction they feel, provided they have the support of the players, or at least a group of interested players

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:27 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
EUK have their own set of lists which are reviewed every few years and if you want to enter their events, use their lists....


Agreed, so why do we need to make the netEA list match to the epicUK one then?

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:30 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
EUK have their own set of lists which are reviewed every few years and if you want to enter their events, use their lists....


Agreed, so why do we need to make the netEA list match to the epicUK one then?

Nobody has suggested that

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:39 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
EUK have their own set of lists which are reviewed every few years and if you want to enter their events, use their lists....


Agreed, so why do we need to make the netEA list match to the epicUK one then?


we don't, that is just not the situation at all

Ulrik has identified something he thinks is a problem, and instead of making something entirely new, he's offered a potential solution using a rule from a different list, the benefit of which is that the new rule has been playtested by a relatively large group of players and will continue to recieve more playtesting in future as well

So far the necron list is in its infancy in the UK tournament scene, but I've not heard anyone complain that LM is now too weak

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
LOADS of changes have been made to the chaos and marine lists without them being pushed back to developmental, ...


I would consider that a mistake on the part of the ERC for not addressing that rather than a precedent being set.

I strongly disagree. A lot of very good changes have been made to the SM and CSM lists and that it absolutely a good thing in my view. Approved lists shouldn't be drastically altered but I would hate for the ERC to block such changes.

I'm surprised Ulrik changing the Living Metal rule needs to be approved by the ERC or potentially cause to push Necrons to developmental, it doesn't seem significant enough to me, particularly as it's a change that weakens the list not increases its power.


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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:00 pm 
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I don't think it should matter wether a change makes a list better or worse, tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:46 pm 
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I just think it's way too late on in development to be making major changes to the way core special rules work. Points adjustments, fine, minor stat changes, ok, list construction changes, sure, but special rules should stay as they are for approved lists unless there's a very good reason for the change.

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:00 pm 
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I would say this tweek to LM was on a par with the changes to pulse or spirit stones for BT eldar - small changes to a disliked special rule

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 Post subject: Re: Necron list: Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:05 pm 
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But this isnt even a major change..... it still has the same effect against AT and lance, it's worse versus MW and the same against TK (in the vast majority of cases)

The rule as it is, is clunky and really inelegant, having special rules negating other special rules is not good design IMO

We're headed to a complete impasse with this, either a new list needs to be split off and actively developed, or the AC puts his foot down and makes a decision, anything else is just pressing down on the same bruise....

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