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Necron Regeneration and Phase Out

 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:11 pm 
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The language also needs to be clearer that the dead unit returned to play in the end phase must have the necron rule.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:50 pm 
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Quote: (tv1013 @ Jan. 06 2010, 05:07 )

I had a weird scenario come up not once, but twice during a playtest game this weekend (we're on turn 4, so results are forthcoming).

I tried bringing out my Destroyers during turn two by doing a Retain Advance from a Monolith portal.   Now, keep in mind, they're still phased out and have never entered the board.  I failed to retain with them, and so I assumed I received a Blast Marker, even though they're phased out and off the board.  I didn't feel like bringing them out at that point, so I regrouped to clear the blast marker.  Since I'm off the board, is this allowed?

Following that up, turn three I had a Necron Phalanx phased out and down to a Pariah and two Necron Warriors.  They had rallied in the previous turn, and again, I tried retaining with them, and failed to retain.  As a result of the Hold action, I decided to bulk them up for Turn 4 and regroup, rolling a 6 and bringing them back to full strength, all while off the board.  I got a "I'm not pleased" look from my opponent.

As far as I can tell, by letter of the rule, I'm allowed to do this.  This seems to go against the intent of the list, since Necrons lose all blast markers when rallying to prevent just a thing from occurring.  Or did I do this wrong, and if you fail to retain the initiative you just sit there in Phase Out Land, twiddling your thumbs?

Speaking of Phase Out Land, the new Necron rule states "Formations can return one previously killed unit in the end phase of each turn."  Does this include Necron formations that have phased out, or only units that successfully remain on the table?  We played it "Necrons in play only", but I'm not clear what you can/cannot do while in reserves.

To summarize, while Phased Out, can a formation regain one lost Necron in the end phase?  Also, what happens to a Phased Out formation that fails to retain the initiative, and what are its options?  Maybe I should be asking, while Phased Out, what can a formation do/not do?

I don't see how you could do anything but regroup off board.  If you fail to activate and you don't want to move then regrouping is all that is left.  I'd say you did things mechanically correct.

Although I do have a question: if you were in turn 4 and you were off board and failed to activate, why wouldn't you move out onto the board?  Sure you can bulk up your formation but formations off board count as destroyed for victory points and they certainly can't hold objectives.  Regenerating your formations off the board is a dubious move at best that late in the game and shouldn't have worried your opponent.

I played against the Necrons using the updated rules and had destroyed all but one tomb spyder in a formation on turn 1.  I tried to kill it but alas it survived and -by turn 3- the whole formation was back at full strength.  Very annoying, but expected.  

My take so far is the rule is easier to work out, however the amount of regeneration felt a tad higher.  That was just one game though.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 06 2010, 14:50 )

My take so far is the rule is easier to work out, however the amount of regeneration felt a tad higher.  That was just one game though.

If it is, then an option would be for the end phase regeneration only applies to unbroken formations.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 07 2010, 10:06 )

Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 06 2010, 14:50 )

My take so far is the rule is easier to work out, however the amount of regeneration felt a tad higher.  That was just one game though.

If it is, then an option would be for the end phase regeneration only applies to unbroken formations.

end phase regeneration is only one unit.  That's not a big deal.

It's when you do a regroup that you really rack up the regen.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Getting rid of the "remove all BMs when rallying" might help to reduce the regrouping regeneration. As players would now have BMs to remove AND units to regenerate. That might be something for Raiders 3.0 though :p. The rule has seen a big change already.




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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:55 pm 
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I'm not following you Hena. Yes the Necron rule is now mimicing the void shield rule, however Necrons still shed all their BM when they rally in the end phase due to Phase Out.

If Phase Out didn't remove all BMs then formations would be entering the board with BMs, thus when you regroup you would have to choose between removing those BMs or regenerating units.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Jan. 07 2010, 14:55 )

I'm not following you Hena. Yes the Necron rule is now mimicing the void shield rule, however Necrons still shed all their BM when they rally in the end phase due to Phase Out.

If Phase Out didn't remove all BMs then formations would be entering the board with BMs, thus when you regroup you would have to choose between removing those BMs or regenerating units.

actually, as I recall from the earlier parts of the thread, the entire point was to remove that clause.

Of course, Regrouping isn't an all or nothing deal, as you can split the result between regenerated units and removed Blast Markers.  In fact, they have the same net effect overall - giving you access to more units.

The main reason it was in there to begin with was so that a broken Necron unit would not get an end turn rally phase after they came back, which would have given them a chance to regenerate even MORE units.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Maybe the best thing to do is allow BMs to accumulate and remove that part of the special rule entirely.  Since the regeneration mechanic is now tied to the rally phase only this would be a huge simplification of the rules.  

Think about it... The unit is removed and taken off board.  There it rallies like a normal formation, accumulates BMs like a normal formation, and activates like a normal formation.  The crazy parts of the rules are all gone when we do this.  Keep the +1 on the marshall and you might actually see the formations marshalling.

I think Dave has hit the nail on the head and the rest of us couldn't see the forest through the trees.

EDIT In fact the more I think about it the more I am able to reflect on the game from the other night and realize it has to be done.  The intent behind removing those BMs (and the way we always played it) was as a nerf to inhibit regeneration.  Yes, I am aware that the RAW allowed regeneration without BMs but the majority of the players used the rule as it was intended.  Now that the regeneration has been removed from that mechanic, the BM removal is just a giant benefit.  Its removal must go lock-step with the adoption of the void shield mechanic for the Necron rule.




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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:58 pm 
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I was under the impression that removing that rule was the whole reason this discussion began in the first place, and it had already been agreed to go ahead with that.  :laugh:

The whole reason for going ahead with adopting the Void Shield rule as the Necron Rule was to eliminate the problem that changing the Phase Out ability would create.

With that in mind, I think we can take it that the proper course is to elminate the "remove all blast Markers" part of the Phase Out rule, and adopt the new Necron Rule as previously written.




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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:11 pm 
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I agree that was the original intent, but nobody ever explicitly stated it and it never made it to the change doc.  The way MNB was playing it was with the void shield rule plus removing all BMs.  

I'll make the appropriate changes tonight and re-post the change doc.

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:24 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 07 2010, 16:11 )

I agree that was the original intent, but nobody ever explicitly stated it and it never made it to the change doc.  The way MNB was playing it was with the void shield rule plus removing all BMs.  

I'll make the appropriate changes tonight and re-post the change doc.

Great!

Thanks Mosc.   :smile:

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:29 am 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 06 2010, 09:50 )

Although I do have a question: if you were in turn 4 and you were off board and failed to activate, why wouldn't you move out onto the board?  Sure you can bulk up your formation but formations off board count as destroyed for victory points and they certainly can't hold objectives.  Regenerating your formations off the board is a dubious move at best that late in the game and shouldn't have worried your opponent.

You're right -- I was trying to recall from memory, and that's what I get for writing at 5 in the morning.  The Warriors failed on Turn 2 also, so I had them regroup Turn 3 so they could come back Turn 4.  I'm still not sure it was the best move, but I was kind of flustered by that point.


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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:47 am 
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Quote: (tv1013 @ Jan. 07 2010, 18:29 )

You're right -- I was trying to recall from memory, and that's what I get for writing at 5 in the morning.  The Warriors failed on Turn 2 also, so I had them regroup Turn 3 so they could come back Turn 4.  I'm still not sure it was the best move, but I was kind of flustered by that point.

in that case, it could be argued either way based on the situation at the time :)

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 Post subject: Necron Regeneration and Phase Out
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:32 am 
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so basically what we're saying is get rid of the entire old necron rule and replace it w/ void shield rule during end phase and regroup?


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