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Necron 4.2 - comments
Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:56 pm 
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So as a summary: 4.3 Necron list could look something like this:
Destroyers: ???? (preferably cut guns in half and cut points to 300)
Auto-rally: Gone
Initiative: 2+ for Monoliths, Obelisks, Pylons
Strategy Rating: Variable 3+/1+ if Supreme Commander destroyed

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:02 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 22 2007,19:49)
QUOTE
It's practically unbeatable, if played correctly....

I just don't get how a properly set up "turtle/hedgehog" defense, with garrisoned overwatching "out-riders" if desired, can't hold off against these attacks?

The Necron player has to position their Monoliths first, and aren't garranteed to *go* first.  If they're all up close and personal to "surround" a target formation, and *don't* go first, the enemy can move out or hammer them or even go on overwatch to stall the assault!  

It just seems, to me, that there are a plethora of options to thwart the Monolith rush, and, if you're careful with intermingling, they're taking on only *one* formation anyway.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:11 pm 
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I find myself agreeing with Moscovian; Best to nerf the list by quite an ammount and build it back up if nessesary than just make a minor change or two and not deal with the big problems.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Well to put credit where credit is due, Corey made those suggestions, not I.  Despite his living metal exterior, I think the champ is open to the idea that the list needs a nerfin'.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:31 pm 
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*nods*

Just to make clear, I was just reiterating my major concerns.

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:55 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 23 2007,15:02)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 22 2007,19:49)
QUOTE
It's practically unbeatable, if played correctly....

I just don't get how a properly set up "turtle/hedgehog" defense, with garrisoned overwatching "out-riders" if desired, can't hold off against these attacks?

The Necron player has to position their Monoliths first, and aren't garranteed to *go* first.  If they're all up close and personal to "surround" a target formation, and *don't* go first, the enemy can move out or hammer them or even go on overwatch to stall the assault!  

It just seems, to me, that there are a plethora of options to thwart the Monolith rush, and, if you're careful with intermingling, they're taking on only *one* formation anyway.

that's the point I've been making trying desperately to make to people.  It's nice to know that someone listens :)



I don't see any of these changes as a Nerf... really it's fine tuning that we're down to now, and at this point it only takes little things to really swing things. :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:15 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 22 2007,20:02)
QUOTE
I just don't get how a properly set up "turtle/hedgehog" defense, with garrisoned overwatching "out-riders" if desired, can't hold off against these attacks?

It might... if any such thing were possible.

With the Necron teleport ability, they can put objectives anywhere they want and be assured that they can grab them, in force, whenever they wish.  The 2 T&H objectives will be 90+cm from the Blitz and each other so anything that garrisons is out of position.  (You can garrison on the Blitz but that doesn't exactly add depth.)  The Necrons are on the enemy in Turn 1 and there are teleporting scout formations to complicate going on OW, indirect fire, and sustained fire actions.

You can't deploy in anything except a line down the deployment zone and you don't have any time to form up.  You get 15cm of depth and the minimum frontage you can cram into without intermingling.  I'd very much like to know how to "properly set up" a defensive position in the face of that.

====

Taking out the auto-rally would make a huge difference.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:20 pm 
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Excelsior.  Ever forward.  Beating the Necron-was drum will do us no good at this point.  Since Corey's pushing the change and everyone seems to be supporting it I'd say let's just stick together and get 4.2.2 playtested.  All we need now is an official adjustment on the things I mentioned above and we're good to go.   Corey, to quote Caddyshack, "Well...... WE'RE WAITING!"

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:35 pm 
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Is Corey pushing the no-auto-rally change?  I thought his last comment on it was he "MIGHT... consider" (or something like that) removing the auto-rally.  Maybe I missed a later comment...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:42 pm 
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Pushing is too strong of a word.  He suggested it, however, and Corey rarely suggests things then retracts them (no Lucy maneuvers from the Necron champ thankfully).

Cor, don't leave us in suspense.  Put down the remote control and post. :)

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:04 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 23 2007,16:15)
QUOTE

(Chroma @ Oct. 22 2007,20:02)
QUOTE
I just don't get how a properly set up "turtle/hedgehog" defense, with garrisoned overwatching "out-riders" if desired, can't hold off against these attacks?

It might... if any such thing were possible.

With the Necron teleport ability, they can put objectives anywhere they want and be assured that they can grab them, in force, whenever they wish.  The 2 T&H objectives will be 90+cm from the Blitz and each other so anything that garrisons is out of position.  (You can garrison on the Blitz but that doesn't exactly add depth.)  The Necrons are on the enemy in Turn 1 and there are teleporting scout formations to complicate going on OW, indirect fire, and sustained fire actions.

You can't deploy in anything except a line down the deployment zone and you don't have any time to form up.  You get 15cm of depth and the minimum frontage you can cram into without intermingling.  I'd very much like to know how to "properly set up" a defensive position in the face of that.

====

Taking out the auto-rally would make a huge difference.

I can answer your question on how to finagle things to set up properly in one word:

Garrison


And if everyone feels comfortable with removing the auto rally, lets go with that and see how things roll.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Garrison


So you split your army into three isolated groups?

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corey3750
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:16 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2007,17:09)
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So you split your army into three isolated groups?

no, you deploy some of your force normally around the area of your Blitzkrieg objective, then you use Garrison to deploy your pickets beyond normal deployment range.

depending on your army composition, you might also deploy other tight formations to each flank to act as a counter attack force.

You can also use the other two objectives on your side of the table (depending on terrain and where they've been placed of course) to expand your interdiction zone a bit.

Really, all you are doing is setting up so first turn teleports won't reach anything important in your army.

It's one of those things that easier to show someone than it is to tell about it.  :angry:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:20 pm 
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then you use Garrison to deploy your pickets beyond normal deployment range.


But the Necron player has put the objectives in your table half, so he put them 10cm away from your table edge, as far away from your Blitzkrieg as he can.

So you can't garrison near them, because to do so splits up your army into isolated, easily destroyable islands, rather than adding extra defense in depth.

That effectively limits you to just your 15cm deployment zone.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Necron 4.2 - comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:23 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 22 2007,22:09)
QUOTE
Garrison


So you split your army into three isolated groups?

Generally, I garrison several formations off of my Blitz objective, with two on overwatch, trying to set up "crossfire zones" as well.

Only one unit from a garrisoning formation has to be within 15cm of the objective, you can string out the rest of the formation in whatever direction you like; using scouts' ZOCs you can make a pretty large area denied to Necron teleports.

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