Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)

 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
Just my opinion ... anything "bootlegged" should be something that does not already exist in some form already. And recently that's all I've generally seen ... (But has not stopped from attempting to obtain a few) I think the E/W's recent and upcoming releases of something "NEW" like the Edenites is the way to go. Or DRM's Krays and Andys, two Races no one else made at the time - Lizardmen and Androids. Or MicroWorld's & E/W's Dino Riders ... types of stuff no one makes or is no longer available. Remaking certain models to suit ones tastes of already existing models is fine, but really does not appeal to me ... A cheeseburger with bacon is still a chessburger ... but with bacon ... if you can get what I'm saying ... ;) A Raub, Nashorn, Sleepy Cow, etc. are good examples ... something I've already got ... But with "bacon" ... ;D I think the time and talent should be spent on something that does not already exist ... Just my opinion ... as always ... from the L4's SoTR - DWWFY ... not me ... ;D

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote:
Naughty Space Elves. Their fluff and design idiom hasn't exactly made me enamoured of them.


How is that possible - they are ultra spikey! (I always wonder how they scratch tricky to reach regions without lacerating themselves. the small of the back say could behead you!

Quote:
That light tank doesn't look like it would be too difficult to make a model of, but I wonder what use it will be in E:A. Oh well, I suppose I'll take a look at it when it's released.
Just looking at it, I suspect Jes Goodwin didn't have anything to do with it's design. It looks as if they chopped up a falcon, ditched all of the engine parts, then glued it back together.

I thought it looked like a weapons platform with a turret stuck on. or is it in fact simply a falcon with a bigger turret? If its the former I guess something like LV5+ or something silly. Not sure if there would be any reason to have them though. In theory if the powerplant is to stripped down it would have less speed than a falcon.
Didn't really see the eldar going for economy transports!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:26 pm
Posts: 277
Location: UK
semajnollissor wrote:
Argh.

That light tank doesn't look like it would be too difficult to make a model of, but I wonder what use it will be in E:A. Oh well, I suppose I'll take a look at it when it's released.

Just looking at it, I suspect Jes Goodwin didn't have anything to do with it's design. It looks as if they chopped up a falcon, ditched all of the engine parts, then glued it back together.

As for the DE, I will withhold judgement until I see what they look like.


It does look a bit blah. Looks like they took a falcon grav-tank turret and stuck it on a support weapon platform - Should be an easy conversion in Epic then!

Edit - argh - snipered by Chris! I swear it took me 15 mins to write that!

_________________
More of a current misconception which seems to be that every army in Rogue Trader consisted of 2 squats with toughness 15 force fields and homing autodestructive 50" blast vortex missiles on jetboards...

My (rarely) updated hobby blog


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:43 pm
Posts: 453
Location: UK
Legion 4 wrote:
Just my opinion ... anything "bootlegged" should be something that does not already exist in some form already. And recently that's all I've generally seen ... [...]A Raub, Nashorn, Sleepy Cow, etc. are good examples ... something I've already got
You should remember though that you have a good amount of everything already though! :P

Many of us didn't or couldn't buy everything back when it was originally released, and are reluctant to spend ludicrous money on it now through Ebay.

Frankly, I'd rather have a new set of models for things like the CI than pay £50 for something that was never very detailed (or well designed for assembly) and no longer fits the current tank designs either.

Furthermore, new designs for old vehicles don't need infringe on Grandma Wendy's Copyrights or Trademarks.

I understand your position, but I think we're at the stage where many models that are needed for basic lists are not reasonably available any more, and people here ant to play a game of Epic set in the 40k universe, and not a game of random space-lizards in an Epic ruleset. Even if they are very nice space-lizards!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:03 am
Posts: 338
Location: Raleigh, NC
I know this can be a touchy discussion, because it can and often does Trample on Intellectual Property issues. While i am thankful for GW's games and have purchased most of the Epic Stuff from AT to E40k, the complete lack of availability of the range of miniatures really pushes my buttons. I really do not condone or like the thought of resin casting and or flat out ripping off GW Models. This is counterproductive and could lead to bad blood between GW and the community. However if there are simply NOT models available, then GW is complicit in failing to utilize their IP and honestly the market demands that something fill the gap, look-alike or proxy models are needed for much of the past and current catalog.

Obviously the ideal situation would be for GW to bring back their entire product like covering most if not all OOP models, and at a decent price point, I should add, 50% -100% premium over the rest of the market is absurd. Even more Ideal would be for GW to give a lifetime license to another company for the full line allowing a small more agile company to find a better way to produce the epic catalog in smaller batches keeping most of it in print (again at a better pricepoint).

Even if on of the above 2 scenarios occurs, we still have a huge need for BITS BITS BITS BITS both troop, vehicle and Titan Sized. That would be a great thing for someone to work on in plastic, metal or even etched metal. If you are planning to do something "Fan made" then I would say that Bitz and conversion parts are the biggest need right now.

_________________
MadMagician
Epic Tyranids


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:26 pm
Posts: 277
Location: UK
madmagician wrote:
While i am thankful for GW's games and have purchased most of the Epic Stuff from AT to E40k, the complete lack of availability of the range of miniatures really pushes my buttons. I really do not condone or like the thought of resin casting and or flat out ripping off GW Models. This is counterproductive and could lead to bad blood between GW and the community. However if there are simply NOT models available, then GW is complicit in failing to utilize their IP and honestly the market demands that something fill the gap, look-alike or proxy models are needed for much of the past and current catalog.


QFT. It is the general apathetic shoulder shrugging that we get back whenever quizzed that gets me. There are individuals in there that do care about us SG'ers but are so hamstrung by corporate dogma that they are unable to do anything...

_________________
More of a current misconception which seems to be that every army in Rogue Trader consisted of 2 squats with toughness 15 force fields and homing autodestructive 50" blast vortex missiles on jetboards...

My (rarely) updated hobby blog


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:03 am
Posts: 338
Location: Raleigh, NC
elsmore wrote:
madmagician wrote:
I know this can be a touchy discussion, because it can and often does Trample on Intellectual Property issues.


I agree, and personally I think if you follow this thread of thought to its logical conclusion, there is no point even discussing it... :)


But, we can take things in a different direction. If there were good looking "Compatible models*" easily available and there was a healthy market for them, this could also use pure market forces to give GW the kick in the bum that it needs to start supporting the product lines.


*"Compatible models" - Non GW based look-similar models that happen to match up to the troop types and vehicles needed. If done properly, these avoid GW intellectual property in its entirety as you cannot copyright "look and feel".

_________________
MadMagician
Epic Tyranids


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20886
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
But, we can take things in a different direction. If there were good looking "Compatible models*" easily available and there was a healthy market for them, this could also use pure market forces to give GW the kick in the bum that it needs to start supporting the product lines.

More likely, they'd let the current sales drop to nill, then abandon their production altogether.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:15 pm
Posts: 7948
Location: Denmark
madmagician wrote:
*"Compatible models" - Non GW based look-similar models that happen to match up to the troop types and vehicles needed. If done properly, these avoid GW intellectual property in its entirety as you cannot copyright "look and feel".


Not exactly correct. Looks and feel can certainly be copyrighted even if it is not a direct copy of an existing design. For instance there was a large blue mecha-thingy that sort of looked like a space marine, painted blue with an omega-symbol on it's shoulder. This got pulled from the market fairly quickly. Then there was the company that produced a 40k scale large walking robot with a fortress on it's back. Got pulled quickly. I'm not a lawyer but I know that Nealhunt (who is) has explained this a couple of times. Basically it boils down to something like: Can a model within reason be mistaken for something covered by another company's IP. It is obviously very subjective, and it is not certain that GW would always win if tried at a court, but their cease and detist letters would probably scare most small manufacturers or individuals with only limited funds to take it to court.
"A generic human soldier with a helmet and a rifle" or something like that obviously cannot be copyrighted. However a "large gothic spaceship that looks like a flying cathedral" is definitely entering into grey area as that has a look and feel to it that is rather distinct and tied to a particular IP.

Anyway: That's just derailing the topic completely.

I agree that conversion bits that can be used in conjunction with currently available GW models would be an interesting option too. If for no other reason than it helps boost GW sales and thus keeps them from finally killing off the range just a little longer.

_________________
Sofa General

Nobody expects the Inquisition!!!
http://theepiclounge.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA
Um, Neal's not a lawyer, he just deals with them from time to time, mostly because he's a good target for being framed. Yeah, that's it. ::)

I'm of the personal opinion that it really wouldn't be sufficient for GW to simply rereleased their old models, even if that were possible. The newest epic models (FW releases and initial E:A rescupts) are far above the older models in terms of detail. Further, nearly all of the available plastic infantry, with the exception of those character models that were made for E:40k, are very low quality and have inconsistent scale. That means that most of the product range would need a refresh anyway. I assume that was the thinking behind FW's earlier attempts at epic releases - more highly detailed versions of parts that really no one needed.

Now, as for people infringing on IP, etc., I do understand that is an issue, but there is a line between designing GW rip-offs for profit, and making models for your own personal use. Of course, IANAL. In any case, no one is discussing duping minis here. We're talking about parts that are all designed from the ground up from scratch, that noone is making any money off of. I fail to see how that is any different from someone scupting their own 40k minis from greenstuff and casting a few copies (which is something that is done and is generally allowed in GW tourneys).

As it is, GW is already facing competition within it's own IP (more or less) in both 40k and fantasy. There are companies out there that sell alternate scupts for head swaps, body swaps, weapon swaps, etc. for both 40k and fantasy. Those companies get away with it because most GW stuff is pretty generic anyway - orks and humans and elves and dwarves. What people around here do is quite a bit different, though, but no one here is a commercial concern (not yet anyway).

The time is coming, though, when 3D printing will get to the point that people with hobby cash will be able to draw up not just game pieces, but entire plastic injection molds. That technology exists now, but not at a sufficient detail size or price point. In less than ten years that might not be the case. When that happens every college student with a rudimentary knowledge of 3D graphics and a penchant for tabletop wargaming will be making (mostly crude) models, and most likely making the files freely available to their friends. When that happens GW will be out of luck, like the recording industry except with less money to spend on lawyers.

I think a good solution for GW would be to set up a separate design office (like how FW is separate) with the purpose of inviting fan-made models to be submitted, vetted, then released on a small scale. I mean, if we can do it, surely they could too. It would be a 4 man operation, at most. GW could probably even get away with not paying the scuptors beyond a simple, "congratulations, your model was selected!" But I digress again.

Back to the topic at hand, orky turrets and vehicle parts - engines, tracks, wheels, claws, etc. could be something that could be done without much effort.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:00 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 5964
Location: UK
Warmaster Nice wrote:
If for no other reason than it helps boost GW sales and thus keeps them from finally killing off the range just a little longer.


My problem with this is that the whole range on the GW store is currently as good as OOP anyway, with the exception of the plastic boxes 90% of the range is priced out of affordability. Im in favour of buying bits form GW to keep things going for epic, but do any of us really buy hellhounds at £12 for 3? (let alone the landing craft...and id love a landing craft) ???

I think ive only bought 1 non-plastic epic item from GW in the last 2 years (1 pack sentinels, and ive bought lot of 6mm in the last 2 years). They have many more I would really like to buy, but as i say at those prices they might as well be OOP to me.

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:15 pm
Posts: 7948
Location: Denmark
Hehe. True. I'll admit that I don't think I've bought anything from GW in at least 3 years, and I certainly don't feel inclined to do so with the current prices :) BAsically they've priced themselves out of the market as far as I'm concerned. I was just trying to find some moral excuse for doing things based on GW IP. As far as models go I'm really much more interested in stuff that is not easily converted and/or has to be built completely from scratch.

_________________
Sofa General

Nobody expects the Inquisition!!!
http://theepiclounge.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:52 pm
Posts: 221
What can you do though hey ?

I shop off ebay, never buy from GW any more and check the FW site to see if the prices have randomly been cut . I wait for the day GW or someone re-launch's epic and hope, just hope that its compatible with my twenty year old collection.

I did recive from a large ebay lot some what I think are dirtside troopers ( IG ) and some judge dread looking dudes (AA) and some 6mm's that would work as sisters of battle with jump packs, but i don't know if I wish to them and they live in a seperate box to my other stuff.

If this is an Age of Strife for epic then the epic community must be the Crusade so then.... Meh you work the rest out !

Space Marines, Dark Eldar and Custodians . Or as a new range - human's during the age of expansion .
;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fan-made proxies (perhaps a dangerous discussion)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
Major_Gilbear wrote:
Legion 4 wrote:
Just my opinion ... anything "bootlegged" should be something that does not already exist in some form already. And recently that's all I've generally seen ... [...]A Raub, Nashorn, Sleepy Cow, etc. are good examples ... something I've already got
You should remember though that you have a good amount of everything already though! :P

Many of us didn't or couldn't buy everything back when it was originally released, and are reluctant to spend ludicrous money on it now through Ebay.

Frankly, I'd rather have a new set of models for things like the CI than pay £50 for something that was never very detailed (or well designed for assembly) and no longer fits the current tank designs either.

Furthermore, new designs for old vehicles don't need infringe on Grandma Wendy's Copyrights or Trademarks.

I understand your position, but I think we're at the stage where many models that are needed for basic lists are not reasonably available any more, and people here ant to play a game of Epic set in the 40k universe, and not a game of random space-lizards in an Epic ruleset. Even if they are very nice space-lizards!

Point taken ... ;)

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 57 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net