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What makes a good conversion?

 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:16 am 
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With both annual painting competitions (GothiComp and EpiComp) well out of the way, I thought it might be time to raise a question which has been troubling me for some time.
The question actually arose during the last GothiComp where I was appointed as one of the judges for the conversion category. As one would expect, each judge had certain preferences and we had a good discussion about pros and cons about each nominee before reaching a consensus and appointing the winner. An important issue that was raised was the question: What criteria are important to judge and what exactly makes a conversion "good"?

Let me first of all stress that this is in no way aimed at any entrant in any of the competitions. My quoted examples are purely for illustrative purposes, and a result of my personal opinion. As with any aesthetic judgments there's a great deal of subjectivity involved and I'm sure some people would disagree with me. :)

Anyway:

With 3D print available it is now possible to make pretty much perfect copies of larger models with a level of detail that is unachievable by traditional techniques (well unless your name is Will Hayes or Drasannar). I'm not mocking the effort that goes into producing a detailed 3d model, but it seems to me that the element of uncertainty that goes with handmade stuff (your hands may be shaky, the sculpting tool may slip etc.) a good conversion is also something about dexterity and craftsmanship.
As such I think that a good conversion must display a mastery of your chosen medium; that being plasticard, putty or whatever. The material should be formed by a human hand with the natural limitations that implies.

Secondly: The good idea! So, let's say that you are a skilled modeler. You build a BFG ship from scratch that looks just like the official model. Is that a good conversion/scratch build? From a technical standpoint, yes. From an aesthetic, no. In fact I think the good idea is a lot more important than craftsmanship. A conversion can be as complex as a complete scratch build, or it can be as simple as the addition of just the right part that nobody has used that way before. One example was USABOBs Gothic cruiser from last year, which featured a small cathedral from the Planet Killer attached to the bridge. It was a relatively simple conversion, but the idea was absolutely brilliant and characterful. Sometimes less is more.

Thirdly: Originality. Is the conversion "new"? Again using the GothiComp as an example: It is really that interesting to see yet another stretched Imperial Super battleship or Nurgle ship with tentacles all over? Personally I find it a lot more interesting when people throw known designs right out the window and tries something completely different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but at least it is refreshing. You can then begin to argue if the design is within character of the army, but I don't think that's usually much of an issue. A good conversion in my book should "surprise" in some way. Be it a clever use of bits, a striking design or something else.

Finally: Aesthetics. Now this is a highly subjective area to move into and it is probably impossible to make even remotely objective criteria here. What I'm trying to aim at is this: Does the model "work". I.e. is it balanced, dynamic, are the parts integrated, in other words: Does this look like a completely new model/design and not just two kits bashed together? Obviously this is the final judgments that sort fuses the previous criteria.



The tricky part is deciding how much each criteria should weigh against each other. For example, one year a guy submitted a scratch built Space Marine cruiser that was so well made that I had mistaken it for a standard GW model until it was pointed out to me as a conversion. Very impressive craftsmanship, but the overall design was just so subtle that the model didn't have that "thingâ€Â

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:11 am 
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It is definitely an intriguing subject and worthy of discussion. Personally I think that the weighting should be based on three areas, Aesthetics, Creativity, and Complexity.

I believe that aesthetics should weight more into the final score than the other two areas because this is what will determine if the model look "good" in the end. Coming from a design and fine arts background, aesthetics is not as subjective as some would make it out to be. Composition, color, technical and technical skill all go into making the finished product aesthetically pleasing and even the most complex and creative of conversions will fail miserably if they are lacking aesthetically. One medium cannot be pointed to as better than the other either; it takes as much technical skill to create the 3d model of a part as it does to sculpt or fabricate it from plasticard. These are simply different methods to achieve the same result and lack of skill in one area doesn't diminish achievement in the other. Both are tools to be used how the artist will. I believe the judge should ask themselves first how does it look as a whole; then at the skill in execution both in fabrication and painting before giving a final score. Because so much rests on this aspect, I think it should make up 50% of the final score.

Second should be the creativity of the conversion. Did the entry just copy an existing model or did he truly enhance the model in a unique and interesting way? I believe this to be before complexity because sometimes the simplest adjustments are far more creative than the most complex of conversions. This should make up about 30% of the score.

The final aspect is the complexity of the conversion. This is how extensive the entry has been converted and in some cases may be an entirely scratch built model. I place this at the bottom of the list because this is the simplest to accomplish. Any conversion can be worked on until it is quite complex but it takes a very skillful hand to make such complexity both creative and aesthetically pleasing. This should make up about 20% of the final score.

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:26 am 
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I think this is a good topic, but I believe you're over-thinking this.

When I look at a conversion piece and it looks good then it has done its job.

Originality, complexity, and aesthetics should all be considered, but the bottom line is "does it work?"

A good example to this would be the Lucius Pattern Imperator Titan.

When I first looked at it I knew it just "worked". All other considerations become secondary.

Of course how do you judge other top tier contenders when they all "work"?

If a gun were held to my head I would have to say first aesthetics, then originality, and finally complexity.

Maybe an over-simplistic answer to your question, but if I were a judge I would just go with my gut and less on technical issues.

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:51 am 
Quote: (Warmaster Nice @ 23 Feb. 2009, 17:16 )

With 3D print available it is now possible to make pretty much perfect copies of larger models with a level of detail that is unachievable by traditional techniques

Buzzkill!



Just teasing. I understand your point and will be making a lengthier, more insightful comment later.

In summary though: yes, 3D design does not count as conversion or sculpture in the traditional sense.


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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:52 am 
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I reckon Malakai has it pretty close to what I think; does the model look plausible? The setting, the intention of the model and how well it fits in with official models are all important parts for a conversion.

For example, the was an Ultramarines Venerable Battlebarge that I saw a while back (pics here and here) which was so well done that I would have thought it an official model. Plus, it fitted perfectly (IMHO) the exact point of the VBB rules in the SM fleet list. To me, that was a great conversion.

Another example is your Lucius Pattern Imperator. It looks like something GW might have designed, and it fits both in terms of background and model terms.

An example of an excellent conversion that isn't quite so "perfect" is your Zeppelin.* Fantastic model, great concept, great details and perfectly fitting in terms of background. But something about it doesn't seem like it could have been released by GW, and something about its aesthetic sets it apart from other Epic models.

A fantastic conversion is something that is hard to describe really, but you know it when you see it.




*Don't get me wrong, I love your Zeppelin!

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:55 am 
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Quote: (Otterman @ 23 Feb. 2009, 18:51 )

Quote: (Warmaster Nice @ 23 Feb. 2009, 17:16 )

With 3D print available it is now possible to make pretty much perfect copies of larger models with a level of detail that is unachievable by traditional techniques


In summary though: yes, 3D design does not count as conversion or sculpture in the traditional sense.

Nonetheless I would still consider it artistic. It's just another medium to work with like clay to canvas.

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:03 am 
Well, it can be, but the labor (can) suffer under some restrictions.

Drunken musings while Yen makes stir-fry:

1) Can it be printed by the machine / is it within the machine's resolution / is it within the machine's volume? Traditional sculpture can make use of natural textures (rock impression, seashell press, etc.) that greatly exceed 3D printers. As the technology progresses these matters will diminish.

2) Can it be molded? In this case, 3D design is no different than traditional sculpture and conversion: the model can be made with mass production in mind, or it can not (see WMN pattern Capitol Imperialis). Mass production pieces, regarldess of medium, have to be more conservative with design ideology.

3) A cousin to (2), can the design be shared? Insert your own musings as to the benefits of one person making a 3D design and sharing it for modification.

D) Not really related to the above observations, but I believe a particularly deserving conversion would be made of abundant spare parts (i.e. bolter pistols) in clever configurations that defy the original intent of the piece (i.e. just about anything Vanvlak has made).


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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:41 am 
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what makes a good conversion ?   Anything that looks cool !! :cool:  8v)  :vD  Orks are fun to convert because their vehicles are looted cobbled together. Getting that "Orky" feel is a blast !   :alien:

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:12 am 
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Since this topic was framed as "good" conversions for a competition, I'll try to keep my comments limited to that arena.

Conversions imply at that at least a basic, existing model was used in the overall work.  This is going to exclude novel creations that were produced entirely on their own, like the 3D computer magic and other true scratchbuilds, that don't incorporate existing parts in some way.  If we are talking about both conversions & scratchbuilds here, then it might be worth clearing that point up.

I think aesthetics play the biggest part in a successful conversion.  Since we are dealing with 40K material here, does the model look like it fits into the popular perception of 40K?  Is it "balanced" when looked at through the filter of 40Kayness?  Does the model have mass appeal?
 
Creativity & originality are important secondary elements in a conversion, but they are limited by the overall aesthetics of the work.  Amazingly creative work that just flops wildly outside of the perceived 40K universe, is going to fail as a believable conversion.  The best conversions use creativity & originality to push the paradigm out a bit without crossing the line.  That being said, your incredibly detailed Space Zoat Titan with laser sounds is probably not going to win you much admiration. :vD  

Difficulty is important only so far as your audience understands it.  You could have scratchbuilt the interior of a 6mm Russ using eyelashes as tweezers or painstakingly battle damaged a Gargant , but if the bulk of your audience misses that fact, then it's moot.  Personally, I think difficulty has more to do with your own internal satisfaction and the "wows" you get from others who are able to understand & appreciate what went into the model.

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:06 am 
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I would like to add one other catagory to those mentioned.

Playabilty.

These things are game pieces.
I've seen many brilliant conversions here but so many of them are obviously made to sit on a shelf and never see action (and whilst that's fine I'll explain the rationale below for my statment).
Whenever I've made something, I've had to consider that my 8 year old nephew (or anyone else for that matter) will soon be using it in a game and whilst I'm fine with that, it does limit what can be done.

As we are disussing jugding in competitions, there is an advantage to be had by someone who's miniatures/spaceships will never actually be used for their intended purpose. For want of a better phrase, a display model can have a lot more bells and whistles on it than a game piece.
Ultimately, it's not a level playing field.

Now these are (relatively) small competitions but I do think that practicality could also be part of "good conversion" along with many of the already mentioned criteria.




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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:56 pm 
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For me, a good conversion needs to look like it's not a conversion. If it can pass for an original, company produced model, then it's a good conversion. A very simple view, I know!

I agree that scratchbuilds don't count as conversions; they often require quite different skills. But a good conversion can be easily as challenging as a scratchbuilt or fresh sculpt, often more so - getting ready made parts to work together and blend into a cohesive model takes real skill. Hats off to the converters!

As for the 3D design thing, I believe it is sculpting, and every bit as talented as more traditional methods. It's just another medium, that's all. And for straight-line stuff, it's unbeatable. An artist just needs to use the right tool for the right job, and 3D design has become a very useful tool. So hats off to the 3D boys too!

I'm sticking with putty scratchbuilds, myself... :vD

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Most of what I might have said personally has been put to the table by others, but I wanted to pick up on various things people have said:

Otterman: In summary though: yes, 3D design does not count as conversion or sculpture in the traditional sense.

In the traditional sense no, but one could question whether the competition be judged in such a traditional sense or a wider more encompassing one, taking in modern techniques.

Major_Gilbear: An example of an excellent conversion that isn't quite so "perfect" is your Zeppelin.* Fantastic model, great concept, great details and perfectly fitting in terms of background. But something about it doesn't seem like it could have been released by GW, and something about its aesthetic sets it apart from other Epic models.
Personally I think that wonderful Zeppelin does look like something from the W40k universe, particularly something from the Krieg style - there's the cover from that one Fanatic magazine that had zeppelins on I recall. To my mind GW have one aesthetic (which can vary from army to army or over time), FW another and the black library novels by some of the better authors have another. Even if it doesn't look like precisely like something GW would have made a model of it still feels like something from the W40k universe to me and no further from the current standard GW aesthetic than that is from the FW aesthetic.

Onyx: Now these are (relatively) small competitions but I do think that practicality could also be part of "good conversion" along with many of the already mentioned criteria.
For gaming purposes practicality is an important consideration obviously, however I feel very strongly it should not be a consideration when judging a competition of this sort, which I feel should display the very best epic models period and not be limited in any such an artificial a fashion (plus this would add another subjective factor for judges, while not all standard models are gaming friendly anyway e.g. FW Fire Storms are chronically fragile). Large high standard competitions like Golden Demon or Coolmini.com would never dream of judging a piece on how gamer usable it was and are better for it and IMO EpicComp should follow this line. Besides there's nothing to stop the gamer who generally aims his conversions to be gaming-practical from pulling out all the stops for a one-off piece for the competition and to display his talent - in a way that's what I think this competition should be about.

On a personal note if any such a criteria was included it would annoy me and actually put me off the competition a lot (which I have not yet entered, but I'm imagining and cooking up very complicated converted entries for all the epic categories for next years). I tend to be obsessive with my own models and make them the highest aesthetic standard I can and not letting fragility or gaming practicality put me off when making the best of my armies - I will try to be as protective of these as possible when using and transporting them as I can and though I wouldn't risk gaming with them in GW stores and the like (I'd instead use my more unpainted or gamer standard armies) I will game with them in the house and for taking to tournaments (with an eye to having a shot at 'best army' prizes). If breakages happen, I'll just have to live with it.

In relation to deciding generally, I was reading a perhaps relevant article on New Scientist recently suggesting we are best to trust our gut instinct when making complex decisions. Might be worth a quick read if anyone fancies it: http://www.newscientist.com/article....ll=true (I hope it's a fully free article my institution is a subscriber so I wouldn't know if it wasn't).

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:36 pm 
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GlynG - The original question was about judging the conversion catagory.

There was no mention by me of creating a new criteria (or catagory) for entry into any part of the competition so hopefully that means you don't have to get annoyed about anything. I do not advocate restricting entry into the competitions beyond the comp rules.

I certainly do not have the money spare (or the space at the moment) to go and make display pieces. Unfortunately, I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Comparing Epic-Comp to Golden Demon really isn't constructive to the threads original question.
Golden Demon is solely for display pieces.
Epic-Comp isn't and should not try to be. The majority of entries are game pieces.

Wanting to convert something to the best of our abilities is admirable and exactly what the Epic-Comp conversion catagory is for. Find the catagory that your converted mini fits into and enter away. If it's popular, it'll win that catagory and may also win the Conversion prize aswell!

The inclusion of considering playability (in addition to the previous, important catagories already mentioned which should be the main criteria) for conversions, could be helpful to the judges.




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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:00 pm 
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I think with this there is also the 'Rule-of-Cool' factor. Or like we see on the television: the X-Factor.

Sometimes a model gets more praise then another one, just because the model is cooler and visibly more striking, yet the other one is much better on a technical grade (be that conversion and/or painting wise).

In the end it'll always be subjective. Art can never be seen objectively.

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 Post subject: What makes a good conversion?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Quote: (blackhorizon @ 24 Feb. 2009, 21:00 )

In the end it'll always be subjective. Art can never be seen objectively.

VERY true.

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