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nealhunt	Post subject: Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:39 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	As always, the point values in a formation will tend to vary somewhat with composition and size.  These are just some rough guesses for starting points. ========= Imperator titan Values have ranged from 1500-1900 or more.  I would put it at ~1600, but I would have no objections to 1500 as a starting point. Heavy Bolter Chimera Plasma Cannon Chimera Heavy Flamer Chimera I think all the Chimeras are close enough in ability to be exact changeouts, i.e. 25 points. Salamander?Command - 25 Salamander Scout ? 25-30 Didn?t the Salamander Command have Transport (1) in the playtest rules before it was removed?  I think it probably should have it.  In any case, I still think the Command is 25 points like the other Chimera variants.  It has lighter armor and less/no transport but very nice special abilities.  The Scout seems just a touch better than the others and a bit better than the Siegfried (which has similar stats and role).  It might need to be ~30 points if in a dedicated formation.  It could probably be 25 points as an upgrade to another formation. Gorgon ? 50 points Twice the transport, a bit over twice the toughness and very good but short ranged fire compared to the Chimera. Medusa ? Same as Griffon, slower, half the range, but 3x the firepower.  Normally, I would use a difference in firepower like that to boost points, but 15cm is very restrictive.  It also needs a note that it can indirect fire at less than 30cm. Earthshaker Weapon Platform ? 65 points, or 3/250 w/ 3 Trojans Manticore Weapon Platform  ? 65 points, or 3/250 w/ 3 Trojans Hydra Weapon platform ? 40 points, or 3/150 w/ 3 Trojans Trojan ? 15-20 points I think these versions are clearly better than the Siege IG versions on all counts.  I think that either of the arty pieces w/ Trojan transports would be about equal to self-propelled versions in the IG list.  They have a lower armor save and potential problems with mobility but would have 2x as many units.  Hydra should have 45cm range as the self-propelled version. Mole Mortar Rapier (Siegemaster or rulebook stats officialness?) Tarantula Thudd Gun (Again siegemaster or Rulebook stats?) I say use official, published stats whenever possible.  I think all of these are 25 points.  That?s their value in the Siege IG list, a very close approximation in the AMTL list, and if you compare them to a stock IG troop stand, that?s about right, too. IG Beastmen ? 15 points, identical to Mutants in L&D IG Assault Troops ? 15 points IG Bike ? 15 points Using a similar point-scale as comparing SM tacticals to Assaults and Bikes, I?d say they are virtually identical in points to stock IG infantry stands.  The SM versions scale down points slightly, but they also lose more firepower than IG do and the IG bikes gain some armor, which SM bikes do not.  All those point values assume they will be fielded in relatively large formations (probably 8 as a bare minimum). IG Robot (Variants?) ? 25 points.  Compared to SM dread, it?s slower, less CC, same armament, lesser initiative, but picks up Fearless.  Compared to its ?counts as? Ogryn, it?s less armor, less CC, and slower, but is AV/Walker and Fearless and has a decent ranged shot. Leman Russ Conqueror Leman Russ Destroyer Leman Russ Executioner Leman Russ Thunderer I think these are all downgrades, and significant ones at that.  I would suggest starting at 50 points (compared to 60-65 for regular Russ), but that might be too expensive. Mole Termite Problematic for the same reasons as drop pods, i.e. stat line, but a question about whether they have a real in-game effect.  I say price them both at 5 points per troop stand carried (as drop pods are effectively) and let them work the same way.  5/unit might be pricey for the IG, but they don?t need to buy a spaceship to use their Tunneling (Planetfall) ability, so I think it?s a good place to start. I?ll take a stab at the Imperial WEs at a later point.  I don?t have time right now.  I?m probably not a good judge of the aircraft so I won?t even try those. Megagargant          1400? I put the Mega at ~1300.  I think jaldon puts it up around 1500.  I have a vague memory of someone making a case for the 1100-1200 range, but I can?t recall for certain.  I think it?s at least a couple hundred points below the Imperator. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt

Post subject: Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:44 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

My recomendation above only solves task 1) without involving emotion or anything else - just takes something we know about (point value differences in 40K) and uses that value against something else we know about (existing tanks in Epic) and yeilds a base value to start playing epic collector tanks with. If you want to use a mathematical formula, the square root rule is going to be about as fast and more accurate because it is referential to the same system. _________________ Neal

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Warmaster Nice

Post subject: Compendium of "Collector's Models" Point Values Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:04 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:15 pm Posts: 7948 Location: Denmark

Imperator titan Values have ranged from 1500-1900 or more.  I would put it at ~1600, but I would have no objections to 1500 as a starting point. I also rememeber that it had a higher estimated points value at some point. However I also feel that with the "no split fire" restrictions it is a lot of points to put in a single formation which is going to have a hard time paying for itself in combat. Heavy Bolter Chimera Plasma Cannon Chimera Heavy Flamer Chimera I think all the Chimeras are close enough in ability to be exact changeouts, i.e. 25 points.

Sounds good to me.

Salamander?Command - 25
Salamander Scout ? 25-30
Didn?t the Salamander Command have Transport (1) in the playtest rules before it was removed?  I think it probably should have it.  In any case, I still think the Command is 25 points like the other Chimera variants.  It has lighter armor and less/no transport but very nice special abilities.  The Scout seems just a touch better than the others and a bit better than the Siegfried (which has similar stats and role).  It might need to be ~30 points if in a dedicated formation.  It could probably be 25 points as an upgrade to another formation.


I think you're right. I'm still using a Salamander as my command transport in Steel Legion  mechanized companies.


Leman Russ Conqueror
Leman Russ Destroyer
Leman Russ Executioner
Leman Russ Thunderer
I think these are all downgrades, and significant ones at that.  I would suggest starting at 50 points (compared to 60-65 for regular Russ), but that might be too expensive.


Again I agree. The most obvious downgrade is the Thunderer compared to the Demolisher. However the rest are pretty fast compared to a Russ. Not sure how big an advantage that it in the long run.


Gorgon, Medusa, Gun platforms

haven't had much practical experience with those but again it sounds like a very good place to start.

Mole
Termite
Problematic for the same reasons as drop pods, i.e. stat line, but a question about whether they have a real in-game effect.  I say price them both at 5 points per troop stand carried (as drop pods are effectively) and let them work the same way.  5/unit might be pricey for the IG, but they don?t need to buy a spaceship to use their Tunneling (Planetfall) ability, so I think it?s a good place to start.

I have a thing for those tunnellers. Personally I'd like to see them a bit more differentiated form Drop pods. Especially the Hellbore is beggin for some extra rule IMO. I'd love to see it given a 1BP TK attack with a large orbital barrage template where it surfaces to simulate the earth litterally dissapearing beneath the feet of anyone in the way. If so it shouuld probably be a bit more expensive.


Megagargant          1400?
I put the Mega at ~1300.  I think jaldon puts it up around 1500.  I have a vague memory of someone making a case for the 1100-1200 range, but I can?t recall for certain.  I think it?s at least a couple hundred points below the Imperator.


Again it is tricky. It is a very shooty unit but all that firepower can only be directed at a single formation at a time. It should definitely be worth a couple of hundred points less than the Imperator but I'm not exactly sure how much.

Cheers!