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Questions: The Demolisher Cannon

 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:39 pm 
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TRC, I presume your only talking the upgrade cost? Not allowing us to take 6 of for 150pts?

Even then, that would be a huge change, a 50% discount on the current cost. Heck that could be more brutal than the MW proposal... (twice as many units, shots, benefits of increased formation strength and BM etc - all for the same price). It might not be worth 225 for 4, or even 50pts currently as an upgrade, but 25pts is a huge saving..

I think disrupt on the Demolisher cannon and IC FF attack for those units with it as main armament is a good compromise.
It "feels right" for what that's worth and would be my preference over:
a further speed increase (that speed comparison might be without siege shield fitted Dobbsy?) or
a 50% price drop on the Vindicator alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:47 pm 
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175 for four (35 points each with activation surcharge roughly) and 0-2 additional ones for +25 each?

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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:53 pm 
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Sorry, for the upgrade, the independant formation would be a different costing. Suggested by Tiny Tim, I think it is a good idea - based I suspect partly ont he EpicUk expereince of dropping the Griffon upgrade from 150 points to 50 points with no ill effects in the Steel Legion list.

If people don't use the tank for 25 points, then you know you have other problems with it!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:17 pm 
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IC, IC FF and Disrupt will give Demolisher armed units that 'scary' feel in assault against fortifications adding to their niche role. It does not otherwise assist unlike MW, which goes far OTT.

After that, I agree with TRC that we need to work on the formation costs and upgrades. For Marines I would try either
  • 225 for four with upgrades of 50 for one and 75 for 2
    OR
  • 250 for four and 1-2 upgrades at 25 points each

For other Marine formation upgrades perhaps 50 for one and 75 for two? I tend to think that 25 per Vindi is too cheap

As for other non- Marine units, the unit costs can probably be left as is - at least for the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:31 pm 
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The reason I would go with Tims 25 points is that I initially thought 50 points for 3 griffons would be a steal, but it hasn't quite worked out that way! After try a few lists in theoryhammer I can't see an immediate reason to go all in with vindi's. Indeed they still seem to be a secondary choice behind a razorback...


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
IC, IC FF and Disrupt will give Demolisher armed units that 'scary' feel in assault

This is where I'm at given the resistance to trying the speed change.

Ginger wrote:
After that, I agree with TRC that we need to work on the formation costs and upgrades. For Marines I would try either
[list][*]225 for four with upgrades of 50 for one and 75 for 2

For other Marine formation upgrades perhaps 50 for one and 75 for two?

And this is where I sit for costs.

Ginger wrote:
I tend to think that 25 per Vindi is too cheap

Correct. :) Plus if that's put in place the Chaos Vindies will most likely drop to 15 points each! :D

The_Real_Chris wrote:
The reason I would go with Tims 25 points is that I initially thought 50 points for 3 griffons would be a steal, but it hasn't quite worked out that way! After try a few lists in theoryhammer I can't see an immediate reason to go all in with vindi's. Indeed they still seem to be a secondary choice behind a razorback...

Well I'd think AP3+ Disrupt/IC 4+FF is a nice addition. I rarely buy RBs other than one in a single Tac formation. I guess we'll see.


Last edited by Dobbsy on Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Ginger wrote:
For other Marine formation upgrades perhaps 50 for one and 75 for two?

And this is where I sit for costs.


Problem with that though is there is no change to a single vindi. And 25 point saving on getting 2 is of little use as there is near zero current use for 2 of them. I can't think of any formation in a codex list that currently benifits from adding 2, so a 25 point saving there isn't worth much. At least at 25 points for 1 you might see them being used more, to generate feedback on how they are doing rather than the dearth of expereince that currently exisits. And of course if they still aren't taken you know they have more fundemental problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Well I suggest reviewing the formations that can take Vindi upgrades. RB have specific uses and the same is true of Vindis under the correct circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Distrupt, and IC even in FF sounds the most acceptable for me (from the three version of change) as usefulness. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:19 pm 
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I think cross list comparisons are pretty bad.... if the BL list has them at 35 points and they work and are used, it doesn't hurt them in any way for codex marines to have them at 25, providing they aren't overpowered or even get used at those costs.... comparing units in isolation of their respective lists is very much an apples-to-oranges affair

in the imperial fists list they have been playtested a good few times at 225 + 75 for 2 and they have been largely underwhelming.... I honestly can't see the formation being imbalanced at 250 for six (200 + 25 per vindicator) and that is in a ground pounding list with no air assault capability....

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 Post subject: Re: Questions: The Demolisher Cannon
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:37 pm 
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I would like to see some tests of six Vindis in Landing Craft, without troops as well as with the more usual suspects. One particular option would be tacticals with 2 Vindis and either a Hunter or RB.


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