Tactical Command
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The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons debate
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28166		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Vaaish [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons debate
AoC requested this thread for us to talk about weapons, specifically it seems the Avenger. So here we are. Discuss. :)
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Intriguing title LoL :)

FWIW, my views are that in general A/c units should be costed between 75 and 150 each (giving formation costs between 150-300 for two, 250-400 for three). Also a general guide would be to add 25 points to the cost of the first 2 units to cover the 'activation advantage' (hence the TBolts cost of 175) and ideally the formation costs should aim at 200+ to minimise the potential for spam. They should only field 'moderate' weaponry so that the air formations do not have too great an impact on E:A as a whole. This is why ranges are much reduced from any ground-based equivalent, and often the stats are also reduced. Finally, the Eldar units should be the 'best' in the game so the stats of other air units should never exceed any individual stat, and usually be worse for several individual stats.

I realise these are very tight constraints which are necessary to counteract power creep that raises its head with almost every new unit / formation. Hence the need for this discussion with the Avenger.

That said the current Avenger stats don't seem too bad (though 150 a pair seems too cheap) as they fall roughly with the above guidelines, though I have not seen / heard of any play-tests.
Author:  mordoten [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
They're costed at 225/pair, not 150/pair.
Author:  Vaaish [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Correct, in the Skitarii list they are 225 for two, but in the old SoB list they were 150 for two.

I think AoC might be thinking about the stats for the Avenger Bolt Cannon more than the Avenger fighter though, since that's the only thing in the DA list I can see cross over.
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
So, does the Avenger fill the same role in the various lists?
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Vaaish wrote:
Correct, in the Skitarii list they are 225 for two, but in the old SoB list they were 150 for two.

I think AoC might be thinking about the stats for the Avenger Bolt Cannon more than the Avenger fighter though, since that's the only thing in the DA list I can see cross over.

Indeed, I was speaking of the Avenger Mega Bolter aka Half of a Vulcan Mega Bolter, or so I'm told. Does that weapon exists in the AM and Sisters list or am I totally confused? lol
Author:  Vaaish [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
It does exist, the weapon is named for the Avenger strike fighter. The FW version of it is almost exactly 1/2 the number of shots and range of the Vulcan megabolter. However, the Avenger megabolter on the Nephilim is bizarre in that it's very much underpowered despite being basically the same weapon.

To put into epic terms, The VMB is 4x AP3+/AT5+ 45cm and the Avenger Bolt Cannon is 2x AP3+/AT5+ 30cm.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Ginger wrote:
That said the current Avenger stats don't seem too bad (though 150 a pair seems too cheap) as they fall roughly with the above guidelines, though I have not seen / heard of any play-tests.


I would expect that as it is part of the AMTL list that was just approved that it would of had a number greater than 0 play-tests
Author:  Vaaish [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Quote:
I would expect that as it is part of the AMTL list that was just approved that it would of had a number greater than 0 play-tests


It's not part of AMTL, it's part of the Skitarii list which is NOT approved yet.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
DOH! The unified nature of the document bit me in the butt! :D
Author:  GlynG [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
If the 40k Nephilim mounts an underpowered version of the Avenger, then the epic one should too rather than match the AM one.

The SM Fire Raptor has twin avengers too (plus 4 x twin linked heavy bolters) and I plan on modeling and fielding some eventually.
Author:  Vaaish [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
True, but it's an odd nonsensical underpowered version. The Nephilim version is longer range, fewer shots, and worse AP. Fluff wise both cite the same source for the tech. Additionally, the SM Fire Raptor mounts the same cannon (with the same stats) as the avenger.

Nephilim Avenger Mega-bolter: 48" s6 ap4 heavy 5
Avenger Bolt Cannon: 36" s6 ap3 heavy 7
Vulcan Mega-bolter: 60" s6 ap3 heavy 15

In this case, I would recommend ignoring the DA codex Avenger megabolter stats and just use the stats that are used every other time the weapon shows up.
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Vaaish wrote:
In this case, I would recommend ignoring the DA codex Avenger megabolter stats and just use the stats that are used every other time the weapon shows up.


I concur Vaaish. I think there very little difference in the 40k stats to be noticeable in Epic. Are these correct?

30cm 2x AP3+/AT5+
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
Is this the ground-based or airborne version of the weapon?
Author:  Vaaish [ Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
@AoC: Yet those are the correct stats. 1/2 the shots of the VMB and shorter range.

As far as I know the weapon only appears on aircraft.
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