Tactical Command
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How about amending IG Rough Riders?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=21023		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  How about amending IG Rough Riders?
So much attention and efforts have been made in hamstringing the Eldar, has anyone looked at how much ability is currently piled into the IG Rough Riders for so cheap a cost? Surely these units are eligible for an cost increase.

IMPERIAL GUARD ROUGH RIDERS
Infantry 20cm 6+ 4+ 6+

Laspistol (15cms) Small Arms -
Power lance (base contact) Assault weapons First Strike, Extra Attack +1

Notes: Mounted, Scouts, Infiltrators

SIX OF THEM FOR 150 PTS? SERIOUSLY?
Author:  GlynG [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Better just to drop the extra attack as happened with the Krieg version?
Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
You've picked an odd unit to criticise, since they cost the same as Skorchas (arguably the best assault unit per point in the game) and don't even have a ranged weapon. Here's a few examples of other units that also cost 25pts per stand. Compared to their peers, Rough Riders look about right.

SKORCHAS
LV 35cm 5+ 6+ 4+ AP4+ Ignore cover

WARBIKES
INF 35cm 5+ 4+ 6+ AP5+/AT5+

FENRISIAN WOLVES
INF 20cm 5+ 4+ NA +1 EA
Infiltrators
Author:  Matt A [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Not to mention that if you look at Rough Riders funny from any sort of range, they will die. I think they are a fairly balanced fm.
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Also 25 per stand:

SNIPERS
INF 15cm - 6+ 5+
30cm AP5+ Scout Sniper

SENTINEL
LV 20cm 6+ 6+ 5+
30cm AP5+/AT6+

FIRE SUPPORT SQD
INF 15cm - 6+ 4+
45cm 2x AP5+ AT6+

Nope, not even close to the same abilities per 25pts
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Rough Riders are a bit of a one trick pony, if you'll excuse the pun. Great in CC, but marginal to poor everywhere else. Taking their CC in isolation, they seem overpowered. When you look at the whole package, they are really not that scary.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Back in 08 there was talk of dropping the EA, there wasn't consensus for it though. I've played them without the EA a few times, they're good enough, but getting the community to agree on any stat changes is like herding cats. As you see, you ask about one unit and get responses on three others. :P
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
/rant on
It's the stupid cheap screening power coupled with 2x charge range and 1st strike for 25 pts each? That's hardly a one trick pony. Spread out 20cm easily screens a grand battery and only 1-2 die in an attk. When one of the endless commissars is placed in it, Mr. Fearless continues to be a nuisance. This does not compare to other 25 pt units.

But I have no doubt you are spot on Dave. These guys would be defended to be left alone simply to keep them underpriced. I dream of the day when the IG get carved up like the Eldar did.

/rant off

topic dropped.
Author:  mattthemuppet [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
what's happened to Eldar? Have I missed something?

I don't think Rough Riders are unbalanced or overpowered - they allow IG to up the activation count a bit and are annoying as Scout screens, but as long as you keep them at a distance and shoot at them occasionally they won't do an awful lot.

Now, if you let them get into charge range of a shot up AV Co. with poor CC and/ or poor armour, then they'll make a huge mess of it, but that's a tactics/ strategy issue rather than a unit specific one. You could easily make the same argument if you teleported in and assaulted an equivalent in points of Fire Support squads on overwatch :)
Author:  Guthwine [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
From my experience, Rough Riders very quickly become useless if theyre shot at. Yes they are great if they reach their target (esp. with a commisar) but Ive had enough games where they were just shot to bits before they could do anything usefull.

But than again Im not the most experienced player but after the first game where they got to charge unharmed, my opponent tries to take care of them sooner now. :)
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Firmly in the camp that they can shock you once, then get targeted early and often!
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
I don't think I've ever seen more than two formations used; they're not that good due to the horrible save.

You probably see sentinels more often, despite costing the same per unit, due to the cheaper formation cost.
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Well we just finished our 26,000 points per side game (12ft x 16ft board) and Sgt Balicki had at least 8 formations of horses and 6 Sentinels, all were used to surround his large formations to stop engagements. Annoying for sure, They ought to be 200-250 for that number of attributes.
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
Dude, lists are balanced to 5000 - 6000 points. At that level 100 infantry companies would also be obscene!
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How about amending IG Rough Riders?
As Mephiston says, the army lists are balanced for 2000 - 5000 points. Anything outside that range isn't factored into the pricing, and changes will need to be made for games like that.

You can't change the 3000 point balanced army lists because 26000 point game was unbalanced.
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