Tactical Command
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Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=20709		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Signal [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
First: Is there a limit to how many infantry units can claim cover from a single Armored Vehicle?
We've been playing that you're limited to 2 units (as that's the number that can enter Base to Base Contact in an assault) but on a recent review of the rules I can't find any such limit.

Second, a quick question concerning War Engines that fail their dangerous terrain test:

3.1 says that "War Engines that fail a dangerous terrain test suffer a hit (see the damage rules below)" After examining the damage rules it speaks of, it appears that War Engines get their armor save against failed Difficult Terrain tests, which could represent the ability of such a massive vehicle to force its way through impeding terrain. The part that makes it seem this way is that it specifically says "suffers a hit," rather than damage itself. This would seem a minor quibble, except that in 3.2.4 (talking about ending a withdrawal <15cm away from an enemy) the rules use the terminology "it suffers one extra point of damage (no save allowed)" Additionally, 3.3.3 (results of an assault) also uses the "takes one extra point of damage" terminology.

Is this intended ("hit" means what it says, and "hits" have a chance to be saved against before they become "points of damage," so armor save is allowed)
or unintended ("hit" is actually supposed to mean "damage" in this unique case, so no armor save is allowed)

The latter is more consistent with normal Dangerous Terrain tests, but the former interpretation is truer to the written distinction between "hit" and "damage," as well as the significant difference in phrasing between "suffers ____" and "takes a point of ___", which seems to imply an intended difference.
Author:  captPiett [ Mon May 09, 2011 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Yes, AV can provide cover for 2 infantry units. WE can provide cover for 2 per DC.

On the dangerous terrain test, I think you're also correct. They get their armor save. You still have to roll for a crit though.
Author:  Dave [ Mon May 09, 2011 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
WEs take a point of damage per each failed dangerous terrain test, the use of hit here is meant to be used as the hit from the damage rules (3.2.2) not the shooting rules.

Quote:
3.1 WAR ENGINE MOVEMENT
War engines follow the same movement rules as any other
unit. War engines that fail a dangerous terrain test suffer a hit
(see the damage rules below).


Quote:
3.2.2 War Engine Damage Capacity
Unlike normal vehicles, war engines are able to absorb more
than one hit before they are destroyed. The number of hits a
war engine can take is shown by its damage capacity.


Not abundantly clear given the dual meaning of the term but hey, the rules are free :P
Author:  Signal [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
captPiett wrote:
Yes, AV can provide cover for 2 infantry units. WE can provide cover for 2 per DC.


Do you have a source for this?
Author:  captPiett [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Signal wrote:
captPiett wrote:
Yes, AV can provide cover for 2 infantry units. WE can provide cover for 2 per DC.


Do you have a source for this?

Nope; I'm pretty sure it's right though.
I learned the game from Dave, so if I'm wrong it's his fault :P
Author:  Dave [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Or that you're just a poor student...

I don't think it specifically states that anywhere Signal (rulebook or FAQ). We play it that way because of how the base-to-base rules for assault work (max of two attackers per DC for defender).
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
That's how I've always played it as well. "A maximum of two units may move into base contact with each defender (EA 1.12.3)" Not definitive, but certeinly suggestive. The question is whether you can reasonably extrapolate that if no more than a 2:1 ratio (or 2 per DC:1 for WE) can contact a unit in assault, the same is true outside of assault. Also if those ratios are because the units are opposing.

Now, theoretically one could have a Fearless enemy AV or WE stay in BtB after combat (or be Fearless and stay in BtB etc.), and get the cover modifier. That would impose the same restriction based on the initial assault move restrictions, but again that's somewhat of a different story. I'll look around, see if I can't find anything.
Author:  carlos [ Mon May 09, 2011 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
I don't think there's any limit to how many units can claim cover from a friendly AV/WE. What does assaults have to do with it? With getting cover from enemy units sure, but that wasn't the question.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon May 09, 2011 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
There's no technical limit, but there is a near-universally used house rule, which is even used in tournaments, that it's 2 per DC.
Author:  carlos [ Tue May 10, 2011 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
granted it's hard to squeeze more than 2 per DC next to most WE. Having said that I went through the whole of the Bristol Winter Warmer putting 6 gaunts on my Tervigon (2 DC) for cover and nobody said anything. Must confess I never came across that house rule although it seems sensible-ish.
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue May 10, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Something that has always bothered me is the difference that using different bases makes. I guess it's easier to fit more stands (either for cover or for CC) if you use the short edge of the 1cmx4cm bases. I have a mix of base types just because of the era that the models came from, and it doesn't "feel right" when using the short 1cm edge to claim base contact.
Author:  Dave [ Tue May 10, 2011 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Don't feel too bad, I often claim I can hit an entire unit based on that one schlub near the 1cm base edge.
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue May 10, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
I thought the "2 per AV and 2 per DC" response had been put in the master FAQ? Could be wrong but that's what I always use.
Author:  carlos [ Wed May 11, 2011 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
Nothing in the FAQ but it's in the 2008 Epic Armageddon handbook - http://www.box.net/shared/y6c16a9n4v
Author:  Ginger [ Wed May 11, 2011 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cover from AVs, Dangerous Terrain
This was debated at length on the old boards, and the conclusion was that the restriction to the number of units the could get into B-B during an assault (2x units per AV or DC point) would also apply to the number of units that could gain 'concealment' (-1 to hit) by touching an AV or WE as others have said. However, it seems that this has not been added to the FAQ, so I have suggested that it be added to the list.

Also note that there is a FAQ that addresses whether you can gain 'concealment' from OW fire by touching enemy vehicles during the assault move (you can).
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