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Name : Marauder Bomber (Phaeton Pattern)
Type : War Engine
Speed : Bomber
Armour : 5+
Close Combat : -
Firefight : -

Weapons:
Bomb Racks, 15cm, 3BP, Fixed Forwards
Twin Lascannon, 45cm, AT4+, Fixed Forwards
2x Twin Heavy Bolter, 15cm, AA5+

Notes: Damage Capacity 2.

Critical Hit Effect: The bomber is struck in a critical location and is destroyed

Formation: One Marauder Bomber
Cost: 150 Points

It works better as a pair

you can get a bit too much of a boost with an army optimised for AA suppression/clearance and protection.

And at 250 for 3bp I like them.

A single bomber would halve the primary attack, making them even more undesirable IMO.

What, the War Engine stats?

That just led to gamey "cycling" when we tried that, by swapping which was the lead plane you could fly into flak repeatedly and it took 3 DC lost before you lost your first plane. Rather than making up a special rule and increase points costs further to balance the greater resilience we just dropped down to a single plane, and it's worked fine since, really.

You'd seriously consider putting any more than 300pts into bombers (Remembering that you'll want a pair of Thunderbolts too)?

In concept, maybe, but have they made the grade for any of your batreps in a while?

And would you really take them to an EUK event, even with BP3?

Marauder Bombers still aren't seeing any kind of usage, and are still regarded as (very) sub-par, even after increasing their BP to 3 and dropping their points cost to 250pts.

It is clear that the current NetEA (And, indeed, EpicUK) balance fix has failed to have any effect whatsoever.

I would like to propose that the NetEA do the radical thing, and use the Marauder Bomber stats and points costs that we worked up and tested for the Death Korps of Krieg list:

Quote:

We've tested this bomber lots. I have yet to hear a single complaint as regards its in-game balance.
It's worth taking in my opinion, useful but not particularly amazing.

For 150pts you get a bomber that puts out slightly more shots than a Thunderhawk Gunship, if used optimally, but which is much easier to kill (3 hits is a statistical kill, I believe, as compared to the T-hawk's 8 hits for a statistical kill, ignoring criticals which again favours the T-hawk).

I'd like to hear what others think.

Evil and Chaos wrote:

E&C, with all respect I do see the Marauder being used. I just got my butt handed to me by a pair of them two weeks ago.

That formation is 375 for two of them and they are points well spent. With that as my best point of reference, I'd say that your stats for the Marauder are probably heavy handed (or it is too inexpensive, or both)

Any thoughts on making the stats more WYSIWYG?

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Marauder Bombers
Marauder Bombers still aren't seeing any kind of usage, and are still regarded as (very) sub-par, even after increasing their BP to 3 and dropping their points cost to 250pts. It is clear that the current NetEA (And, indeed, EpicUK) balance fix has failed to have any effect whatsoever. I would like to propose that the NetEA do the radical thing, and use the Marauder Bomber stats and points costs that we worked up and tested for the Death Korps of Krieg list: Quote: Name : Marauder Bomber (Phaeton Pattern) Type : War Engine Speed : Bomber Armour : 5+ Close Combat : - Firefight : - Weapons: Bomb Racks, 15cm, 3BP, Fixed Forwards Twin Lascannon, 45cm, AT4+, Fixed Forwards 2x Twin Heavy Bolter, 15cm, AA5+ Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The bomber is struck in a critical location and is destroyed Formation: One Marauder Bomber Cost: 150 Points We've tested this bomber lots. I have yet to hear a single complaint as regards its in-game balance. It's worth taking in my opinion, useful but not particularly amazing. For 150pts you get a bomber that puts out slightly more shots than a Thunderhawk Gunship, if used optimally, but which is much easier to kill (3 hits is a statistical kill, I believe, as compared to the T-hawk's 8 hits for a statistical kill, ignoring criticals which again favours the T-hawk). I'd like to hear what others think.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
It works better as a pair as otherwise you can get a bit too much of a boost with an army optimised for AA suppression/clearance and protection. And at 250 for 3bp I like them. I don't use them in epicuk because they are 2bp still which makes them too susceptible to losing a plane.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Quote: It works better as a pair What, the War Engine stats? That just led to gamey "cycling" when we tried that, by swapping which was the lead plane you could fly into flak repeatedly and it took 3 DC lost before you lost your first plane. Rather than making up a special rule and increase points costs further to balance the greater resilience we just dropped down to a single plane, and it's worked fine since, really. Quote: you can get a bit too much of a boost with an army optimised for AA suppression/clearance and protection. You'd seriously consider putting any more than 300pts into bombers (Remembering that you'll want a pair of Thunderbolts too)? That's an army that's going to be very light on the ground for capturing objectives, and oh-so vulnerable against Eldar or Tau. Quote: And at 250 for 3bp I like them. In concept, maybe, but have they made the grade for any of your batreps in a while? And would you really take them to an EUK event, even with BP3?

Author:	Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
At least in Guard Lists, Marauders aren't taken because IG Arty is so much better at doing what they do. For the same price I can get a battery of Manticores with their 6BP Disrupt shot that can hit anywhere on the board regardless of Flak. Sure they are Slow Firing, but against anything but Counterbattery fire they tend to last longer. Marines tend to spend their AC/Titan points on Warhounds and TBolts, and invest in THawks to boot. They run into the opposite problem of the Warhound: anything they can do can be done better by something else. Edit - A single bomber would halve the primary attack, making them even more undesirable IMO.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Quote: A single bomber would halve the primary attack, making them even more undesirable IMO. Except with a single bomber, what you're getting is BP3, plus a twin lascannon, for just 150pts... a notable discount on a Basilisk battery and not a great loss of capability.

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Marauder Bombers http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=19574	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Crud, didn't notice the discount. Realistically, I either take Basilisk Companies or Manticore Batteries, though. The FW model is fantastic, but unless I was playing a put whatever you have out type game, I'd pass.

Author:	Man of kent [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
I've yet to play with the WE engine marauder but intend to be in the next few months.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Evil and Chaos wrote: What, the War Engine stats? That just led to gamey "cycling" when we tried that, by swapping which was the lead plane you could fly into flak repeatedly and it took 3 DC lost before you lost your first plane. Rather than making up a special rule and increase points costs further to balance the greater resilience we just dropped down to a single plane, and it's worked fine since, really. Yes we would do that as well and it still seemed better than having the 2 activations. Quote: You'd seriously consider putting any more than 300pts into bombers (Remembering that you'll want a pair of Thunderbolts too)? At those stats? Certainly. 450 for planes, 550 for warhounds I am down 1 ground formation I think, plenty of ways round that. Yes enemy flak armies are difficult but again nothing you can't overcom as witnesed by air assault builds for various races. Quote: In concept, maybe, but have they made the grade for any of your batreps in a while? And would you really take them to an EUK event, even with BP3? [/quote] I haven't taken them as all my games in the past year have been with epicuk rules prior to tourneys and stuff. otherwise yes I would be taking 1 squadron with marines every time and maybe one with guard.

Author:	Moscovian [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Evil and Chaos wrote: Marauder Bombers still aren't seeing any kind of usage, and are still regarded as (very) sub-par, even after increasing their BP to 3 and dropping their points cost to 250pts. It is clear that the current NetEA (And, indeed, EpicUK) balance fix has failed to have any effect whatsoever. E&C, with all respect I do see the Marauder being used. I just got my butt handed to me by a pair of them two weeks ago. Quote: I would like to propose that the NetEA do the radical thing, and use the Marauder Bomber stats and points costs that we worked up and tested for the Death Korps of Krieg list: Quote: Name : Marauder Bomber (Phaeton Pattern) Type : War Engine Speed : Bomber Armour : 5+ Close Combat : - Firefight : - Weapons: Bomb Racks, 15cm, 3BP, Fixed Forwards Twin Lascannon, 45cm, AT4+, Fixed Forwards 2x Twin Heavy Bolter, 15cm, AA5+ Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The bomber is struck in a critical location and is destroyed Formation: One Marauder Bomber Cost: 150 Points We've tested this bomber lots. I have yet to hear a single complaint as regards its in-game balance. It's worth taking in my opinion, useful but not particularly amazing. For 150pts you get a bomber that puts out slightly more shots than a Thunderhawk Gunship, if used optimally, but which is much easier to kill (3 hits is a statistical kill, I believe, as compared to the T-hawk's 8 hits for a statistical kill, ignoring criticals which again favours the T-hawk). I'd like to hear what others think. The Elysian list has the following stats for the Marauder Destroyers Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight Aircraft/War Engine Bomber 4+ n/a n/a Weapon Range Firepower Notes 3 x Twin Autocannons 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc 15cm AA5+ - Twin Assault Cannons 15cm AA4+ Rear 180 2 x Underwing rockets 30cm AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The bomber's engines are seriously damaged, the pilot loses control and the aircraft is destroyed That formation is 375 for two of them and they are points well spent. With that as my best point of reference, I'd say that your stats for the Marauder are probably heavy handed (or it is too inexpensive, or both).

Author:	GlynG [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
I much prefer the war engine bomber stats and have used in games (unlike the original marauders) and found it seems good.

Author:	Dwarf Supreme [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Moscovian wrote: Evil and Chaos wrote: Marauder Bombers still aren't seeing any kind of usage, and are still regarded as (very) sub-par, even after increasing their BP to 3 and dropping their points cost to 250pts. It is clear that the current NetEA (And, indeed, EpicUK) balance fix has failed to have any effect whatsoever. E&C, with all respect I do see the Marauder being used. I just got my butt handed to me by a pair of them two weeks ago. I frequently use them.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Quote: That formation is 375 for two of them and they are points well spent. With that as my best point of reference, I'd say that your stats for the Marauder are probably heavy handed (or it is too inexpensive, or both) I don't know, you can do those funky hit-cycling moves with a pair of WE aircraft (Power boost), and it will take a third more hits to kill them just through armour saves alone (Armour 4+ versus 5+) those would tend to imply that Marauders with those stats and formation compositions would survive longer (And do more damage)... I think. Still, if people are using them and I'm mistaken, then that's also cool. :-)

Author:	captPiett [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
Where does this stand IRT the 3BP 250-pt marauders? I've used those twice now; once they really fried some 'nids in an Onachus playtest, the other they failed to activate for the first three turns and missed with everything in the 4th. I found them great in an SM list but wouldn't take them for IG for the arty reasons mentioned above. Any thoughts on making the stats more WYSIWYG? That may be kind of OT.

Author:	zombocom [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Marauder Bombers
I actually think the current netEA marrauders are probably pretty good, but people don't take them more out of habit than anything else. We're so used to them being rubbish that people tend not to consider them, but reports of those who have tried them seem pretty positive.

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